5 ms·

Fair point but don't forget that the US, while being known as one of the most free countries is also one of the most violent in the world. It's a tricky questi

by ytinas 17y ago

Fair point but don't forget that the US, while being known as one of the most free countries is also one of the most violent in the world. It's a tricky question to be sure.

plinkplonk 17y ago
"Fair point but don't forget that the US, while being known as one of the most free countries is also one of the most violent in the world. It's a tricky question to be sure." What's tricky? The easy way is to conduct a thought experiment - given a choice, would you live in a violent democracy like the USA or a "peaceful" dictatorship like China? And guess what, you do have a choice (modulo some paperwork) to live where you want. Let's see you go live in the rising superpower :-). More seriously, the argument is not that there aren't good points about every society/ country/political system. Of course there are, if you look hard enough. A system's goodness should be judged by the people who live under it and the Chinese don't have the luxury of choosing what system they live under. Till they do, and voluntarily choose "harmony" over the right of free speech (say), any "goodness" of the dictatorship is purely hypothetical. Anyhow, I didn't (and don't, any further,) intend to argue politics on this thread. It is just that I am a bit sensitive to people advocating that others suffer "for the greater good", while avoiding any sacrifice themselves.
- maxklein 17y ago
  I personally have been to the U.S and to China, and I am going back to live in china for a few years. I enjoyed china a lot more than the U.S.
  - plinkplonk 17y ago
    "I am going back to live in china for a few years. I enjoyed china a lot more than the U.S." Sure, why not? I am not talking of visiting China (I'd love to. I am sure the people are great, as is the food). I am not talking of living there a few years either (I wouldn't that either mind as long as I can hack my way through the firewall to access the Internet and read and post what I choose and run back home if things get too tough). I am talking of (as a thought experiment) you giving up your US (or whatever) citizenship and applying for Chinese citizenship. Not quite the same eh? Very few people crossed the Berlin Wall from West to East. Many died trying to go the other way. The point is, citizens of other countries can enjoy living in China(or North Korea) if their tastes runs to "social harmony" precisely because they have an ever present escape hatch. Without it things look very different.
    - maxklein 17y ago
      Given the choice between Chinese or Indian or Phillipino citizenshup, I would take chinese. I would not give up my current citizenship simply because of travel opportunity: western countries don't want people from poorer countries entering their countries. If the world were truly open and I could live and work where I please, I would not care. I'd take the citizenship of whatever country I was in for convenience sake. China is not as developed as the west. East Berlin was not as developed as West Berlin. People make the move not for freedom, but for economic opportunity. When china is richer than the U.S and people can earn more money there and live better, you will see huge migration into china.
    - illumen 17y ago
      If you have not been to a place, and only hear propoganda against it, it is very hard to judge. In many ways I think the Chinese are more free than other societies. There are also many different types of people there, and even different cultures. Like in all countries, elements are corrupt. They do a lot of bad, but also a lot of good. If you don't mind living in a certain way, and you are mentally sane, then it is an ok place to be I think. They just don't tollerate people going against their way. Living in china as a foreigner is much more difficult than other countries. You have issues like getting visas where you can not leave the country for years at a time. Also it can be hard to get your money out of the country. Basically they want people who will fit in, and really love china enough to stay there for a long time. You also have to register, or stay at foriegn licenced hotels. However, I guess every country has tough immigration rules. cya.
- ytinas 17y ago
  >And guess what, you do have a choice (modulo some paperwork) to live where you want. Actually, not so much. For most countries you can't just go there, you would have to either marry in or get a job there. Getting a job can be harder because most countries have rules in place to force their companies to hire their own citizens. I do wish it could be a lot easier to move between countries so that countries would be forced to compete with each other. Of course the countries would do what they could (as they do now) to make people think they are better off than they are now.

by ytinas 17y ago

Fair point but don't forget that the US, while being known as one of the most free countries is also one of the most violent in the world. It's a tricky question to be sure.

plinkplonk 17y ago

"Fair point but don't forget that the US, while being known as one of the most free countries is also one of the most violent in the world. It's a tricky question to be sure." What's tricky? The easy way is to conduct a thought experiment - given a choice, would you live in a violent democracy like the USA or a "peaceful" dictatorship like China? And guess what, you do have a choice (modulo some paperwork) to live where you want. Let's see you go live in the rising superpower :-). More seriously, the argument is not that there aren't good points about every society/ country/political system. Of course there are, if you look hard enough. A system's goodness should be judged by the people who live under it and the Chinese don't have the luxury of choosing what system they live under. Till they do, and voluntarily choose "harmony" over the right of free speech (say), any "goodness" of the dictatorship is purely hypothetical. Anyhow, I didn't (and don't, any further,) intend to argue politics on this thread. It is just that I am a bit sensitive to people advocating that others suffer "for the greater good", while avoiding any sacrifice themselves.

maxklein 17y ago
I personally have been to the U.S and to China, and I am going back to live in china for a few years. I enjoyed china a lot more than the U.S.
- plinkplonk 17y ago
  "I am going back to live in china for a few years. I enjoyed china a lot more than the U.S." Sure, why not? I am not talking of visiting China (I'd love to. I am sure the people are great, as is the food). I am not talking of living there a few years either (I wouldn't that either mind as long as I can hack my way through the firewall to access the Internet and read and post what I choose and run back home if things get too tough). I am talking of (as a thought experiment) you giving up your US (or whatever) citizenship and applying for Chinese citizenship. Not quite the same eh? Very few people crossed the Berlin Wall from West to East. Many died trying to go the other way. The point is, citizens of other countries can enjoy living in China(or North Korea) if their tastes runs to "social harmony" precisely because they have an ever present escape hatch. Without it things look very different.
  - maxklein 17y ago
    Given the choice between Chinese or Indian or Phillipino citizenshup, I would take chinese. I would not give up my current citizenship simply because of travel opportunity: western countries don't want people from poorer countries entering their countries. If the world were truly open and I could live and work where I please, I would not care. I'd take the citizenship of whatever country I was in for convenience sake. China is not as developed as the west. East Berlin was not as developed as West Berlin. People make the move not for freedom, but for economic opportunity. When china is richer than the U.S and people can earn more money there and live better, you will see huge migration into china.
  - illumen 17y ago
    If you have not been to a place, and only hear propoganda against it, it is very hard to judge. In many ways I think the Chinese are more free than other societies. There are also many different types of people there, and even different cultures. Like in all countries, elements are corrupt. They do a lot of bad, but also a lot of good. If you don't mind living in a certain way, and you are mentally sane, then it is an ok place to be I think. They just don't tollerate people going against their way. Living in china as a foreigner is much more difficult than other countries. You have issues like getting visas where you can not leave the country for years at a time. Also it can be hard to get your money out of the country. Basically they want people who will fit in, and really love china enough to stay there for a long time. You also have to register, or stay at foriegn licenced hotels. However, I guess every country has tough immigration rules. cya.
ytinas 17y ago
>And guess what, you do have a choice (modulo some paperwork) to live where you want. Actually, not so much. For most countries you can't just go there, you would have to either marry in or get a job there. Getting a job can be harder because most countries have rules in place to force their companies to hire their own citizens. I do wish it could be a lot easier to move between countries so that countries would be forced to compete with each other. Of course the countries would do what they could (as they do now) to make people think they are better off than they are now.