5 ms·

While I disagree with some of what you say here, I really get sick of this mentality that we know best and places that aren't like us are wrong and should chang

by ytinas 17y ago

While I disagree with some of what you say here, I really get sick of this mentality that we know best and places that aren't like us are wrong and should change. Let china do what they want (so long as it isn't something horrific like genocide, etc.) and we'll see how it goes. If everyone does what we do, they'll just get what we have. Maybe we could be better.

GiraffeNecktie 17y ago
They kill 1700 people a year. At what point does that become "horrific". They throw people in jail for 11 years for the crime of threatening stability (ie. suggesting that public officials should be held accountable to the public they serve). India has almost as many people as China (some day it will have more) and arguably more diversity and it still manages reasonably well as a democracy.
- maxklein 17y ago
  India has low classes, untouchables and terrible Ghettos. China does not. India has war, border clashes and terrorism, china does not. India has people publicly saying that all muslims should be killed, china does not. India has people being burnt alive for being witches, or for stealing. China does not. It's easy for you to say that the indian system is better - but I think when the tire is thrown around your neck and petrol doused on you, you will gladly exchange not being able to open flickr for that.
  - ankeshk 17y ago
    >China does not. India has war, border clashes and terrorism, china does not. Thats funny (and inaccurate). Because a lot of Indian border clashes are against the Chinese. India and China have a long standing border dispute. Also - I've never been to China so can't comment. But news sources say that India has a better human rights record than China. So the probability of throwing tire around the neck and petrol dousing is higher in China than in India. That stuff doesn't happen in India without consequences. (Disclosure: I'm an Indian.)
  - Robin_Message 17y ago
    China has the great leap forward, suppressing of the Uighurs, destruction of Tibet's culture and a ban on religion. India does not. China has war with Vietnam and Taiwan. Its main border clash is with Indian. I've heard it said that free speech is important, even when people use it for hateful things. How can you possibly know that no-one has been summarily killed in any Chinese village? I'd say the fact that people know such things happen in India is a strength, not a weakness. It is an embarrassment for India so they have a incentive to solve it. In China, no-one will hear of it and no-one will be embarrassed, so it will never be solved. Ultimately, when your child dies because a bridge falls down, or the water is dirty, or you are forced to move out of your home for a dam to be built, and then the state imprisons you for having the cheek to complain, you will wish you are not in China. Wikipedia: "The Great Leap Forward of the People's Republic of China (PRC) was an economic and social plan used from 1958 to 1961 which aimed to use China's vast population to rapidly transform China from a primarily agrarian economy by peasant farmers into a modern communist society through the process of agriculturalization and industrialization. Mao Zedong based this program on the Theory of Productive Forces. It ended in catastrophe as it triggered a widespread famine that resulted in tens of millions of deaths." Count any lynchings against that.
    - maxklein 17y ago
      If you want to start bringing in an old and discredited system into the argument, then I can start bringing in slavery and so on. We're talking about modern china, not Mao Zedong china. Are you going to go on next about the illegal wall against the mongolians?
- ytinas 17y ago
  Go look at how many people US government accidentally kills (e.g. stun gun mishaps, shooting unarmed even innocent people, innocent people receiving the death penalty, etc.) every year and multiply that by 5 (they have 5 times more people). I would be shocked if the number is less than 1700. I don't think China is a fantastic country, but if what we do produces even worse results and even more misery (I don't know that we are, but it could obviously be argued) then how can we say we know better?
  - Robin_Message 17y ago
    The fact I can give you the link: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=19 http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=19 more or less is the difference, and American is on the right side of the difference. Note that the 1700 refers to death penalty killings, which American is unique amongst developed countries to still have, and is as bad as China is this. The fact it puts them on a list with, for example, China, Iran, Yemen, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia should be a reason enough to get rid of it.
    - ytinas 17y ago
      I'm not a fan of China's government either (though I hate the US' about equally), but I really think this argument is vastly more complex than you're presenting. For example, you think it's clear cut that US citizens being able to get some link on the Internet puts them above China citizens. There are many problems with this line of reason: 1) People in China can get on the web as well. Due to how the firewalling work, most probably don't even realize it happens. Just sometimes they try a link that times out. Happens all the time. Are you sure it isn't already happening to you? 2) Are you sure the information you're seeing is true? In some cases you wont have any way of completely proving one way or another. 3) For some countries, seeing the info doesn't affect anything because of the level of indoctrination the people go through. For example, you can point out what ever you like to a Scientologist, you wont change their mind because their indoctrination will prevent them from believing you or your source. Are you sure you or the citizens of your country don't also have this problem?

by ytinas 17y ago

GiraffeNecktie 17y ago

They kill 1700 people a year. At what point does that become "horrific". They throw people in jail for 11 years for the crime of threatening stability (ie. suggesting that public officials should be held accountable to the public they serve). India has almost as many people as China (some day it will have more) and arguably more diversity and it still manages reasonably well as a democracy.

maxklein 17y ago
India has low classes, untouchables and terrible Ghettos. China does not. India has war, border clashes and terrorism, china does not. India has people publicly saying that all muslims should be killed, china does not. India has people being burnt alive for being witches, or for stealing. China does not. It's easy for you to say that the indian system is better - but I think when the tire is thrown around your neck and petrol doused on you, you will gladly exchange not being able to open flickr for that.
- ankeshk 17y ago
  >China does not. India has war, border clashes and terrorism, china does not. Thats funny (and inaccurate). Because a lot of Indian border clashes are against the Chinese. India and China have a long standing border dispute. Also - I've never been to China so can't comment. But news sources say that India has a better human rights record than China. So the probability of throwing tire around the neck and petrol dousing is higher in China than in India. That stuff doesn't happen in India without consequences. (Disclosure: I'm an Indian.)
- Robin_Message 17y ago
  China has the great leap forward, suppressing of the Uighurs, destruction of Tibet's culture and a ban on religion. India does not. China has war with Vietnam and Taiwan. Its main border clash is with Indian. I've heard it said that free speech is important, even when people use it for hateful things. How can you possibly know that no-one has been summarily killed in any Chinese village? I'd say the fact that people know such things happen in India is a strength, not a weakness. It is an embarrassment for India so they have a incentive to solve it. In China, no-one will hear of it and no-one will be embarrassed, so it will never be solved. Ultimately, when your child dies because a bridge falls down, or the water is dirty, or you are forced to move out of your home for a dam to be built, and then the state imprisons you for having the cheek to complain, you will wish you are not in China. Wikipedia: "The Great Leap Forward of the People's Republic of China (PRC) was an economic and social plan used from 1958 to 1961 which aimed to use China's vast population to rapidly transform China from a primarily agrarian economy by peasant farmers into a modern communist society through the process of agriculturalization and industrialization. Mao Zedong based this program on the Theory of Productive Forces. It ended in catastrophe as it triggered a widespread famine that resulted in tens of millions of deaths." Count any lynchings against that.
  - maxklein 17y ago
    If you want to start bringing in an old and discredited system into the argument, then I can start bringing in slavery and so on. We're talking about modern china, not Mao Zedong china. Are you going to go on next about the illegal wall against the mongolians?
ytinas 17y ago
Go look at how many people US government accidentally kills (e.g. stun gun mishaps, shooting unarmed even innocent people, innocent people receiving the death penalty, etc.) every year and multiply that by 5 (they have 5 times more people). I would be shocked if the number is less than 1700. I don't think China is a fantastic country, but if what we do produces even worse results and even more misery (I don't know that we are, but it could obviously be argued) then how can we say we know better?
- Robin_Message 17y ago
  The fact I can give you the link: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=19 http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=19 more or less is the difference, and American is on the right side of the difference. Note that the 1700 refers to death penalty killings, which American is unique amongst developed countries to still have, and is as bad as China is this. The fact it puts them on a list with, for example, China, Iran, Yemen, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia should be a reason enough to get rid of it.
  - ytinas 17y ago
    I'm not a fan of China's government either (though I hate the US' about equally), but I really think this argument is vastly more complex than you're presenting. For example, you think it's clear cut that US citizens being able to get some link on the Internet puts them above China citizens. There are many problems with this line of reason: 1) People in China can get on the web as well. Due to how the firewalling work, most probably don't even realize it happens. Just sometimes they try a link that times out. Happens all the time. Are you sure it isn't already happening to you? 2) Are you sure the information you're seeing is true? In some cases you wont have any way of completely proving one way or another. 3) For some countries, seeing the info doesn't affect anything because of the level of indoctrination the people go through. For example, you can point out what ever you like to a Scientologist, you wont change their mind because their indoctrination will prevent them from believing you or your source. Are you sure you or the citizens of your country don't also have this problem?