4 ms·

Harsh Justice In China

14 points by cellis 17y ago

maxklein 17y ago
I may be wrong, but I support the chinese system of enforced social harmony. China has a billion people, and a huge number of those people are not living by a particularly high standard compared to people in the west. Chinas system is forcing progress - it's causing huge jumps in the standards of living for all of those people. It's a train speeding towards a better life for everyone. China is providing infrastructure, healthcare, education, and equal rights (sexual, ethnic, etc) for those people. The chinese system creates a socially harmonious system (if you have been in china, you will know it is a very peaceful country), while forcing progress. Yes, for this, some rights are given up. Yes, dissent is not allowed. But it only takes a few dissenters to destroy a system. Dissent has to be kept to a minimum while the country marches forward. There are two ways to progress : by letting everyone say everything they want, which has so far led to huge wars and a LOT of failed states, or by having a burocratic and strong leadership at the top that does extensive long term planning. This has been shown to work (Singapore, China, Malaysia, Botswana). It's easy to say that China should be more free. But the practical result will be death, war and suffering. An educated and knowledgable society in future will be well equiped to avoid war. Let china achieve a certain status, then we can talk about relaxing the system. Till then, for progress to continue, the policy of social harmony is not optional.
- plinkplonk 17y ago
  "I may be wrong, but I support the chinese system of enforced social harmony." Easy to say when others are the ones being forced into "harmony" and you are the citizen of a democratic Western country,and it is not your rights that are sacrificed "for the greater good".
  - ytinas 17y ago
    Fair point but don't forget that the US, while being known as one of the most free countries is also one of the most violent in the world. It's a tricky question to be sure.
    - plinkplonk 17y ago
      "Fair point but don't forget that the US, while being known as one of the most free countries is also one of the most violent in the world. It's a tricky question to be sure." What's tricky? The easy way is to conduct a thought experiment - given a choice, would you live in a violent democracy like the USA or a "peaceful" dictatorship like China? And guess what, you do have a choice (modulo some paperwork) to live where you want. Let's see you go live in the rising superpower :-). More seriously, the argument is not that there aren't good points about every society/ country/political system. Of course there are, if you look hard enough. A system's goodness should be judged by the people who live under it and the Chinese don't have the luxury of choosing what system they live under. Till they do, and voluntarily choose "harmony" over the right of free speech (say), any "goodness" of the dictatorship is purely hypothetical. Anyhow, I didn't (and don't, any further,) intend to argue politics on this thread. It is just that I am a bit sensitive to people advocating that others suffer "for the greater good", while avoiding any sacrifice themselves.
      - maxklein 17y ago
        I personally have been to the U.S and to China, and I am going back to live in china for a few years. I enjoyed china a lot more than the U.S.
        plinkplonk 17y ago
        "I am going back to live in china for a few years. I enjoyed china a lot more than the U.S." Sure, why not? I am not talking of visiting China (I'd love to. I am sure the people are great, as is the food). I am not talking of living there a few years either (I wouldn't that either mind as long as I can hack my way through the firewall to access the Internet and read and post what I choose and run back home if things get too tough). I am talking of (as a thought experiment) you giving up your US (or whatever) citizenship and applying for Chinese citizenship. Not quite the same eh? Very few people crossed the Berlin Wall from West to East. Many died trying to go the other way. The point is, citizens of other countries can enjoy living in China(or North Korea) if their tastes runs to "social harmony" precisely because they have an ever present escape hatch. Without it things look very different.
- ytinas 17y ago
  While I disagree with some of what you say here, I really get sick of this mentality that we know best and places that aren't like us are wrong and should change. Let china do what they want (so long as it isn't something horrific like genocide, etc.) and we'll see how it goes. If everyone does what we do, they'll just get what we have. Maybe we could be better.
  - GiraffeNecktie 17y ago
    They kill 1700 people a year. At what point does that become "horrific". They throw people in jail for 11 years for the crime of threatening stability (ie. suggesting that public officials should be held accountable to the public they serve). India has almost as many people as China (some day it will have more) and arguably more diversity and it still manages reasonably well as a democracy.
    - maxklein 17y ago
      India has low classes, untouchables and terrible Ghettos. China does not. India has war, border clashes and terrorism, china does not. India has people publicly saying that all muslims should be killed, china does not. India has people being burnt alive for being witches, or for stealing. China does not. It's easy for you to say that the indian system is better - but I think when the tire is thrown around your neck and petrol doused on you, you will gladly exchange not being able to open flickr for that.
      - ankeshk 17y ago
        >China does not. India has war, border clashes and terrorism, china does not. Thats funny (and inaccurate). Because a lot of Indian border clashes are against the Chinese. India and China have a long standing border dispute. Also - I've never been to China so can't comment. But news sources say that India has a better human rights record than China. So the probability of throwing tire around the neck and petrol dousing is higher in China than in India. That stuff doesn't happen in India without consequences. (Disclosure: I'm an Indian.)
      - 17y ago
- forinti 17y ago
  I'm afraid you are really wrong. The dictatorships in Latin America had economic progress, but a lot of problems were simply ignored and ended up been tackled in the 80s with a lot of pain. Corruption was rampant but people didn't know about it because it simply didn't show up in the press. People seem to think it magically appeared overnight when the military left power. A lot of money was ill-spent and huge debts were made which aren't well explained. There were megaprojects, just as China has now, but simple things like sanitation, housing, and education were ignored. Urban centres grew with little or no planning, resulting in the chaos we now have. So I'm afraid you can't simply take away accountability and hope for the best.
  - maxklein 17y ago
    I am not advocating dictatorship or one-man rule. I am advocating a planned economy and a burocratic system at the top, where a cadre of leaders plan and decide how progress should happen. Be clear on that - single leader dictatorships are the worst form of government. China does not have that anymore and has not had it for a long time. China has an elite class. Do you know how hard it is to get into the communist party? Do you know you have to be REALLY good to be invited in. The party selects intelligent and competent people to enter the leadership class a.k.a, the party.
    - plinkplonk 17y ago
      "Do you know how hard it is to get into the communist party? " It doesn't matter. You still get killed or tortured and imprisoned if you think the "elite leadership" is wrong and express your opinion. An "elite" gang of thugs is still a gang of thugs, only more dangerous than your usual garden variety hoodlum. I suspect the Mafia is also "Invite Only" as is Al Quaeda. That doesn't make them desirable arbiters of your life and happiness.
    - forinti 17y ago
      There are no one-man dictatorships. Dictators always have the support of a lot of people. When the military took power in Brazil in 1964, there was celebration in the streets. In the rich part of town, of course. Your vision of an 'enlightened elite' is bit scary.
- chancho 17y ago
  " Let [Country X] achieve a certain status, then we can talk about relaxing the system." Who is to say that any country has reached such an enlightened state. Your argument stands against any instance of democracy.
- rmanocha 17y ago
  "There are two ways to progress : by letting everyone say everything they want, which has so far led to huge wars and a LOT of failed states" I don't agree with almost anything you said here, but the above statement can easily be contradicted by taking India's experiences since Independence into account.
  - maxklein 17y ago
    See my comment below on the state of India. The lower classes of india have it much much worse than the lower classes of China.
    - rmanocha 17y ago
      I think Robin_message does a good job refuting your comments there. Let me just add, that whatever else the lower classes in India might lack compared to the lower classes in China, the one thing they don't lack, is the voice (and opportunity) to descent. I experienced this first hand during my recent trip to India where a highway I was traveling on was blocked by about 50 subsistence farmers protesting the lack of water in their fields. Whether these kinds of protests are constructive or not, I do not imagine any subsistence farmers in China have the opportunity to block a heavily used highway for a whole day without facing severe punishments.
- ytinas 17y ago
  Disagree does not equal downvote people.

14 points by cellis 17y ago

I may be wrong, but I support the chinese system of enforced social harmony. China has a billion people, and a huge number of those people are not living by a particularly high standard compared to people in the west. Chinas system is forcing progress - it's causing huge jumps in the standards of living for all of those people. It's a train speeding towards a better life for everyone. China is providing infrastructure, healthcare, education, and equal rights (sexual, ethnic, etc) for those people. The chinese system creates a socially harmonious system (if you have been in china, you will know it is a very peaceful country), while forcing progress. Yes, for this, some rights are given up. Yes, dissent is not allowed. But it only takes a few dissenters to destroy a system. Dissent has to be kept to a minimum while the country marches forward. There are two ways to progress : by letting everyone say everything they want, which has so far led to huge wars and a LOT of failed states, or by having a burocratic and strong leadership at the top that does extensive long term planning. This has been shown to work (Singapore, China, Malaysia, Botswana). It's easy to say that China should be more free. But the practical result will be death, war and suffering. An educated and knowledgable society in future will be well equiped to avoid war. Let china achieve a certain status, then we can talk about relaxing the system. Till then, for progress to continue, the policy of social harmony is not optional.

plinkplonk 17y ago
"I may be wrong, but I support the chinese system of enforced social harmony." Easy to say when others are the ones being forced into "harmony" and you are the citizen of a democratic Western country,and it is not your rights that are sacrificed "for the greater good".
- ytinas 17y ago
  Fair point but don't forget that the US, while being known as one of the most free countries is also one of the most violent in the world. It's a tricky question to be sure.
  - plinkplonk 17y ago
    "Fair point but don't forget that the US, while being known as one of the most free countries is also one of the most violent in the world. It's a tricky question to be sure." What's tricky? The easy way is to conduct a thought experiment - given a choice, would you live in a violent democracy like the USA or a "peaceful" dictatorship like China? And guess what, you do have a choice (modulo some paperwork) to live where you want. Let's see you go live in the rising superpower :-). More seriously, the argument is not that there aren't good points about every society/ country/political system. Of course there are, if you look hard enough. A system's goodness should be judged by the people who live under it and the Chinese don't have the luxury of choosing what system they live under. Till they do, and voluntarily choose "harmony" over the right of free speech (say), any "goodness" of the dictatorship is purely hypothetical. Anyhow, I didn't (and don't, any further,) intend to argue politics on this thread. It is just that I am a bit sensitive to people advocating that others suffer "for the greater good", while avoiding any sacrifice themselves.
    - maxklein 17y ago
      I personally have been to the U.S and to China, and I am going back to live in china for a few years. I enjoyed china a lot more than the U.S.
      - plinkplonk 17y ago
        "I am going back to live in china for a few years. I enjoyed china a lot more than the U.S." Sure, why not? I am not talking of visiting China (I'd love to. I am sure the people are great, as is the food). I am not talking of living there a few years either (I wouldn't that either mind as long as I can hack my way through the firewall to access the Internet and read and post what I choose and run back home if things get too tough). I am talking of (as a thought experiment) you giving up your US (or whatever) citizenship and applying for Chinese citizenship. Not quite the same eh? Very few people crossed the Berlin Wall from West to East. Many died trying to go the other way. The point is, citizens of other countries can enjoy living in China(or North Korea) if their tastes runs to "social harmony" precisely because they have an ever present escape hatch. Without it things look very different.
ytinas 17y ago
While I disagree with some of what you say here, I really get sick of this mentality that we know best and places that aren't like us are wrong and should change. Let china do what they want (so long as it isn't something horrific like genocide, etc.) and we'll see how it goes. If everyone does what we do, they'll just get what we have. Maybe we could be better.
- GiraffeNecktie 17y ago
  They kill 1700 people a year. At what point does that become "horrific". They throw people in jail for 11 years for the crime of threatening stability (ie. suggesting that public officials should be held accountable to the public they serve). India has almost as many people as China (some day it will have more) and arguably more diversity and it still manages reasonably well as a democracy.
  - maxklein 17y ago
    India has low classes, untouchables and terrible Ghettos. China does not. India has war, border clashes and terrorism, china does not. India has people publicly saying that all muslims should be killed, china does not. India has people being burnt alive for being witches, or for stealing. China does not. It's easy for you to say that the indian system is better - but I think when the tire is thrown around your neck and petrol doused on you, you will gladly exchange not being able to open flickr for that.
    - ankeshk 17y ago
      >China does not. India has war, border clashes and terrorism, china does not. Thats funny (and inaccurate). Because a lot of Indian border clashes are against the Chinese. India and China have a long standing border dispute. Also - I've never been to China so can't comment. But news sources say that India has a better human rights record than China. So the probability of throwing tire around the neck and petrol dousing is higher in China than in India. That stuff doesn't happen in India without consequences. (Disclosure: I'm an Indian.)
    - 17y ago
forinti 17y ago
I'm afraid you are really wrong. The dictatorships in Latin America had economic progress, but a lot of problems were simply ignored and ended up been tackled in the 80s with a lot of pain. Corruption was rampant but people didn't know about it because it simply didn't show up in the press. People seem to think it magically appeared overnight when the military left power. A lot of money was ill-spent and huge debts were made which aren't well explained. There were megaprojects, just as China has now, but simple things like sanitation, housing, and education were ignored. Urban centres grew with little or no planning, resulting in the chaos we now have. So I'm afraid you can't simply take away accountability and hope for the best.
- maxklein 17y ago
  I am not advocating dictatorship or one-man rule. I am advocating a planned economy and a burocratic system at the top, where a cadre of leaders plan and decide how progress should happen. Be clear on that - single leader dictatorships are the worst form of government. China does not have that anymore and has not had it for a long time. China has an elite class. Do you know how hard it is to get into the communist party? Do you know you have to be REALLY good to be invited in. The party selects intelligent and competent people to enter the leadership class a.k.a, the party.
  - plinkplonk 17y ago
    "Do you know how hard it is to get into the communist party? " It doesn't matter. You still get killed or tortured and imprisoned if you think the "elite leadership" is wrong and express your opinion. An "elite" gang of thugs is still a gang of thugs, only more dangerous than your usual garden variety hoodlum. I suspect the Mafia is also "Invite Only" as is Al Quaeda. That doesn't make them desirable arbiters of your life and happiness.
  - forinti 17y ago
    There are no one-man dictatorships. Dictators always have the support of a lot of people. When the military took power in Brazil in 1964, there was celebration in the streets. In the rich part of town, of course. Your vision of an 'enlightened elite' is bit scary.
chancho 17y ago
" Let [Country X] achieve a certain status, then we can talk about relaxing the system." Who is to say that any country has reached such an enlightened state. Your argument stands against any instance of democracy.
rmanocha 17y ago
"There are two ways to progress : by letting everyone say everything they want, which has so far led to huge wars and a LOT of failed states" I don't agree with almost anything you said here, but the above statement can easily be contradicted by taking India's experiences since Independence into account.
- maxklein 17y ago
  See my comment below on the state of India. The lower classes of india have it much much worse than the lower classes of China.
  - rmanocha 17y ago
    I think Robin_message does a good job refuting your comments there. Let me just add, that whatever else the lower classes in India might lack compared to the lower classes in China, the one thing they don't lack, is the voice (and opportunity) to descent. I experienced this first hand during my recent trip to India where a highway I was traveling on was blocked by about 50 subsistence farmers protesting the lack of water in their fields. Whether these kinds of protests are constructive or not, I do not imagine any subsistence farmers in China have the opportunity to block a heavily used highway for a whole day without facing severe punishments.
ytinas 17y ago
Disagree does not equal downvote people.