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If workers cooperating for better conditions is seen as evil, of course businesses will squeeze workers with impunity. Look at other countries to see that it do

If workers cooperating for better conditions is seen as evil, of course businesses will squeeze workers with impunity. Look at other countries to see that it doesn't have to be this way. Libertarianism: the idea that the perfect society must run on unchecked prisoner's dilemmas, and enforcing cooperation is a crime. "I'm sorry that your vase broke, but we must put faith in the invisible hand of gravity." The real question is where the left-wingers are in all this. Their job was supposed to be helping the worker class, organizing strikes and unions and such. I guess they stopped giving a fuck sometime in the 20th century, because blue collar workers are too "socially backward".

mahranch 11y ago
Yeah, this is what I don't get about libertarianism & anarcho-capitalism. All it takes is one bad actor to ruin it for everyone else. Just a single one. And in a country with 300 million people, how can there not be one person who will take advantage and become that bad actor? If the past 5 thousand years of human history has shown us anything, it's that corruption is inherent to human nature. Therefor, libertarianism runs contrary to human nature.
wfo 11y ago
The left wingers already lost because they don't have the money and power. There's never been a lot to gain in making things better for the people who need help (the goal of left wing ideology), and a lot to gain in making things better for people who have money and power (the goal of right wing/libertarian ideology). Large corporate interests are largely right wing and extremely politically active. There's nothing comparable on the left (possibly the copyright lobby which has aligned themselves with the democratic party generally but is orthogonal to the whole debate really) Corporate interests shape the political spectrum so we steadily move to a more and more pro-corporate political scene. The country has shifted so far over to the right that right-wingers from 20 30 years ago look like radical leftists of today, and the leftists from 20 or 30 years ago are laughed out of the political arena. We are entering a new gilded age, which will be followed by a new great depression (we narrowly dodged one recently), which will be followed by the resurgence of progressive ideas until corporate interests wrest back control of the political process and the cycle begins again. But given how internationalized things are I suspect if we enter a great depression and liberals take hold the rich will simply leave and move to a country willing to bow to their interests.
- gaius 11y ago
  There's never been a lot to gain in making things better for the people who need help (the goal of left wing ideology) If you help them and they become middle class they might not vote for you anymore. That's why left-wing politics fails, because of this paradox it can never deliver. Whereas right-wing parties prosper when their supporters prosper - the interests are aligned.
- cousin_it 11y ago
  Interesting. In what ways do you feel the US has shifted to the right? (I'm more familiar with the right wing narrative saying the country has shifted to the left - gay marriage, black president, etc. But it's very possible that I'm getting a biased sample of the rhetoric.)

mahranch 11y ago

Yeah, this is what I don't get about libertarianism & anarcho-capitalism. All it takes is one bad actor to ruin it for everyone else. Just a single one. And in a country with 300 million people, how can there not be one person who will take advantage and become that bad actor? If the past 5 thousand years of human history has shown us anything, it's that corruption is inherent to human nature. Therefor, libertarianism runs contrary to human nature.

wfo 11y ago

The left wingers already lost because they don't have the money and power. There's never been a lot to gain in making things better for the people who need help (the goal of left wing ideology), and a lot to gain in making things better for people who have money and power (the goal of right wing/libertarian ideology). Large corporate interests are largely right wing and extremely politically active. There's nothing comparable on the left (possibly the copyright lobby which has aligned themselves with the democratic party generally but is orthogonal to the whole debate really) Corporate interests shape the political spectrum so we steadily move to a more and more pro-corporate political scene. The country has shifted so far over to the right that right-wingers from 20 30 years ago look like radical leftists of today, and the leftists from 20 or 30 years ago are laughed out of the political arena. We are entering a new gilded age, which will be followed by a new great depression (we narrowly dodged one recently), which will be followed by the resurgence of progressive ideas until corporate interests wrest back control of the political process and the cycle begins again. But given how internationalized things are I suspect if we enter a great depression and liberals take hold the rich will simply leave and move to a country willing to bow to their interests.

gaius 11y ago
There's never been a lot to gain in making things better for the people who need help (the goal of left wing ideology) If you help them and they become middle class they might not vote for you anymore. That's why left-wing politics fails, because of this paradox it can never deliver. Whereas right-wing parties prosper when their supporters prosper - the interests are aligned.
cousin_it 11y ago
Interesting. In what ways do you feel the US has shifted to the right? (I'm more familiar with the right wing narrative saying the country has shifted to the left - gay marriage, black president, etc. But it's very possible that I'm getting a biased sample of the rhetoric.)