4 ms·

Codifying a 45-50 hour work week really doesn't help.

by capisce 11y ago

saryant 11y ago
OTOH, at least they put it in public. Now people know not to apply.
- thoman23 11y ago
  Man, no kidding. Why would anyone want to sign up for that? 45-50 hours codified face time in your open office cattle farm. Get permission from a founder at least a day in advance if god forbid you need to be out of the office for something. Not only do I not want to work there, but I'll think twice before signing up with them as my 2FA provider.
  - Stasis5001 11y ago
    Permission from one of several founders at a 10 person company is proportionally equivalent to letting your team lead know you'll be absent. That's not exactly an excessive standard, is it? Further, an open expectation of 45-50 hours at a place that also encourages spending 4 of those hours on self-study seems fine compared to the risk-adjusted industry average.
    - hoorayimhelping 11y ago
      It's the implication of what the rule means. There's a huge difference between "let someone know you're going to be absent" and "ask a founder for permission to not have to come to the office."
    - PlzSnow 11y ago
      An expectation of 45-50 hours work is illegal in most of the developed world. This company is legally free to require that, and prospective employees are free to work somewhere else, that treats their staff like normal human beings.
    - jbapple 11y ago
      > Permission from one of several founders at a 10 person company is proportionally equivalent to letting your team lead know you'll be absent. That's not exactly an excessive standard, is it? Requesting is different from informing. "May I work from home tomorrow?" is not the same as "I am going to work from home tomorrow."
      - Stasis5001 11y ago
        If you tell your boss "I am going to take tomorrow off", and they say, "Actually, you're scheduled for an interview, can you please come in? But take Thursday or Friday off by all means", you're going to still go to work, right? Informing, in practice, is identical to requesting, and this is really just a language thing that makes it clear that you (a) should inform somebody you'll be gone and (b) you can take any day off except maybe 5% of days have critical meetings or whatever. It seems reasonable to think this is codified this way because the alternative language of informing doesn't imply suggestion (b), but sure, it could also be due to the founders being control freaks.
        jbapple 11y ago
        > If you tell your boss "I am going to take tomorrow off", and they say, "Actually, you're scheduled for an interview, can you please come in? But take Thursday or Friday off by all means", you're going to still go to work, right? Informing, in practice, is identical to requesting ... In my experience, "you must ask for permission" is substantially different from "you don't have to ask, but your decision may be overruled". It sounds like your experience is different. Perhaps the differences I see can be put into another context. Think about the action "eating off someone else's plate", rather than "working from home". Do you see the gap between informing and requesting in that circumstance? The difference seems huge to me.
martin-adams 11y ago
Came here to say the same. 9-10 hour work days I think shows that the company is too young that they aren't able to invest in a work-life balance. I hope that commitment comes with early employee equity, because time in someone else's payoff is something you don't get back. Putting it in writing up front for employees is crucial and good.
lultimouomo 11y ago
Early phase startups are not known for emphasizing work-life balance. Clef offers 50hrs weeks, 3 weeks vacation, which seems pretty standard to me for this kind of job. I, like you, think that working so much will take too big a toll on your life, if you do it long term. But it could make sense short term, depending on you personal situation. I think it's good that they're upfront about it, and gives me a general sense of confidence in the document. An employee applying for a job at Clef will be able to make an informed choice, which is great, because information scarcity makes taking a job a huge leap of faith...
PlzSnow 11y ago
Requiring a 50 hour week would be illegal in most of the developed world. Not at this company though. What a dismal state of affairs.

Codifying a 45-50 hour work week really doesn't help.

by capisce 11y ago

Codifying a 45-50 hour work week really doesn't help.

saryant 11y ago

OTOH, at least they put it in public. Now people know not to apply.

thoman23 11y ago
Man, no kidding. Why would anyone want to sign up for that? 45-50 hours codified face time in your open office cattle farm. Get permission from a founder at least a day in advance if god forbid you need to be out of the office for something. Not only do I not want to work there, but I'll think twice before signing up with them as my 2FA provider.
- Stasis5001 11y ago
  Permission from one of several founders at a 10 person company is proportionally equivalent to letting your team lead know you'll be absent. That's not exactly an excessive standard, is it? Further, an open expectation of 45-50 hours at a place that also encourages spending 4 of those hours on self-study seems fine compared to the risk-adjusted industry average.
  - hoorayimhelping 11y ago
    It's the implication of what the rule means. There's a huge difference between "let someone know you're going to be absent" and "ask a founder for permission to not have to come to the office."
  - PlzSnow 11y ago
    An expectation of 45-50 hours work is illegal in most of the developed world. This company is legally free to require that, and prospective employees are free to work somewhere else, that treats their staff like normal human beings.
  - jbapple 11y ago
    > Permission from one of several founders at a 10 person company is proportionally equivalent to letting your team lead know you'll be absent. That's not exactly an excessive standard, is it? Requesting is different from informing. "May I work from home tomorrow?" is not the same as "I am going to work from home tomorrow."
    - Stasis5001 11y ago
      If you tell your boss "I am going to take tomorrow off", and they say, "Actually, you're scheduled for an interview, can you please come in? But take Thursday or Friday off by all means", you're going to still go to work, right? Informing, in practice, is identical to requesting, and this is really just a language thing that makes it clear that you (a) should inform somebody you'll be gone and (b) you can take any day off except maybe 5% of days have critical meetings or whatever. It seems reasonable to think this is codified this way because the alternative language of informing doesn't imply suggestion (b), but sure, it could also be due to the founders being control freaks.
      - jbapple 11y ago
        > If you tell your boss "I am going to take tomorrow off", and they say, "Actually, you're scheduled for an interview, can you please come in? But take Thursday or Friday off by all means", you're going to still go to work, right? Informing, in practice, is identical to requesting ... In my experience, "you must ask for permission" is substantially different from "you don't have to ask, but your decision may be overruled". It sounds like your experience is different. Perhaps the differences I see can be put into another context. Think about the action "eating off someone else's plate", rather than "working from home". Do you see the gap between informing and requesting in that circumstance? The difference seems huge to me.

martin-adams 11y ago

Came here to say the same. 9-10 hour work days I think shows that the company is too young that they aren't able to invest in a work-life balance. I hope that commitment comes with early employee equity, because time in someone else's payoff is something you don't get back. Putting it in writing up front for employees is crucial and good.

lultimouomo 11y ago

Early phase startups are not known for emphasizing work-life balance. Clef offers 50hrs weeks, 3 weeks vacation, which seems pretty standard to me for this kind of job. I, like you, think that working so much will take too big a toll on your life, if you do it long term. But it could make sense short term, depending on you personal situation. I think it's good that they're upfront about it, and gives me a general sense of confidence in the document. An employee applying for a job at Clef will be able to make an informed choice, which is great, because information scarcity makes taking a job a huge leap of faith...

PlzSnow 11y ago

Requiring a 50 hour week would be illegal in most of the developed world. Not at this company though. What a dismal state of affairs.