7 ms·

Violent crime rates, including those against children, have continued to decline year over year in Western countries for a very long time now. It is now safer

by beloch 11y ago

Violent crime rates, including those against children, have continued to decline year over year in Western countries for a very long time now. It is now safer for children to be out alone at younger ages than ever before. The odd thing is that paranoia is at an all time high. Leaving a five-year-old unsupervised, even at home, is flirting with a visit from child protective services. There is less to protect children from than ever before, but parents are more protective than ever. It has reached the point that same are concerned that today's children aren't given enough freedom to experiment and fail. This is not by choice. It is enforced by society and law. Consider what would happen if you sent a three-year-old out on an errand as is done in Japan. A child that age, alone on the street, will attract attention, primarily of the concerned and meddling kind. The child will be asked where their parents are and promptly returned to them. The parents will be chewed out for reckless child endangerment as a bare minimum. While one can argue today's child-associated paranoia is a result of fear-mongering by the media, the real problem is that it's backed up by the law. Parents who are too trusting and permissive will soon find themselves in court. That has to change.

DanBC 11y ago
> Leaving a five-year-old unsupervised, even at home, is flirting with a visit from child protective services Most accidents happen in the home. Most people do a poor job of making their home safe for infants. (EG look at the number of people in the UK who buy socket covers but who don't bolt their TVs to the wall) Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by "leave a 5 year old unsupervised" - does this mean "parent in the home but in different room"? Or "parent pops out to the local shop for half an hour"? Because five year old children are far too young to be left unsupervised for anything over short lengths of time, and if a parent is regularly doing that they probably need a chat from child protection social services.
- kuschku 11y ago
  A 5 year old child is old enough to go to a grocery store, buy stuff, and walk back home. I’ve done it, all my neighbors did it, and everyone I know has done it. Kids being at home for an hour or 2 at that age is no issue either. It’s not something special – everyone does it.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Survivor bias.
    - kuschku 11y ago
      Everyone I know – literally everyone – did this. Walk to the library, walk to the bakery, walk to school, etc. Often around a kilometer each direction. From 5 on, as with 6 we had to walk to school for 1.4 kilometer, and back, so there was no alternative. And with 10, when many kids go to secondary school, we have to use public transit to get to school anyway, so many kids started at that age to take bus/metro/etc to go to other places, too.
      - deciplex 11y ago
        I think DanBC is being sarcastic in suggesting that the only reason you think this is normal is that all the kids who died at 5 years old while going to the grocery store, are no longer around to provide a counterexample because they're dead. But, maybe not. Poe's law rears its head once again.
  - wslh 11y ago
    > A 5 year old child is old enough to go to a grocery store, buy stuff, and walk back home. I’ve done it, all my neighbors did it, and everyone I know has done it. Where?
    - kuschku 11y ago
      I live in Germany, but in the previous thread to this article we came to the conclusion that it’s the same in Finland, Germany, Japan, etc.
    - potatote 11y ago
      I was one of those kids. Grew up in a Southeast asian country. Shop snacks and stuff from grocery stories up to 5 blocks away from my house (blocks are about the same size as the ones in SF downtown). Beyond 5 blocks, my parents would not approve until I get to like 7 yrs.
- brg 11y ago
  Most accidents happen at home for the same reason most auto accidents happen within three miles of home; that's were we are most of the time.
  - syllogism 11y ago
    Most deaths happen on Earth. If only we could get to Mars!
- guard-of-terra 11y ago
  Did "child protection social services" bear this child? Did they feed this child? Did then nourish with this child? Did they play with this child? Did they buy this child clothes? Why should then we ever hear any kind of chatter from them?
DanBC 11y ago
> Leaving a five-year-old unsupervised, even at home, is flirting with a visit from child protective services Most accidents happen in the home. Most people do a poor job of making their home safe for infants. (EG look at the number of people in the UK who buy socket covers but who don't bolt their TVs to the wall) Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by "leave a 5 year old unsupervised" - does this mean "parent in the home but in different room"? Or "parent pops out to the local shop for half an hour"? Because five year old children are far too young to be left unsupervised for anything over short lengths of time, and if a parent is regularly doing that they probably need a chat from child protection social services.
emgoldstein 11y ago
According to free-range child advocate Lenore Skenazy, there are a little over 100 stranger abductions per year in the US. [1]. Therefore, abductions are a not a big deal. According to Wikipedia, 100 years ago, there were about 100 lynchings per year in the US. [2] Therefore, lynching is a big deal. I love this meme about the media. Quick question: for you, personally, when was the last time you saw a media story about an abducted child? When was the last time you saw a media story about paranoid helicopter parents, etc, repeating the ideas you see above? In my experience, the ratio is 1:10 if not 1:20. There's a very straightforward reason why parents keep their kids indoors: the same parents, while outdoors, regularly encounter human beings that they wouldn't trust their kids around. Deinstitutionalization anyone? Free-range mental patients or free-range children: pick one. [3] [1] http://www.freerangekids.com/over-700-children-are-abducted-a-day-says-viral-video/ http://www.freerangekids.com/over-700-children-are-abducted-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_psychiatric_institutions#Deinstitutionalization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_psychiatric_institu...
- DanBC 11y ago
  > Deinstitutionalization anyone? Free-range mental patients Perinatal mental illness is a significant cause of death of women - in the UK suicide is the third leading cause of perinatal death. Many women experience mental illness during or after pregnancy. Ignorant, stigmatising views like yours about mental illness make it harder for women to seek help for their mental health problems. And your wider point is wrong. There's no evidence that people with a mental illness pose a risk of harm to other people or to children. https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/perinatal_web.pdf https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/perinatal_web.pdf Rates of perinatal mental health problems post-partum psychosis is about 2 women per 1,000 maternities; chronic serious MI is 2:1000; severe depressive illness 30:1000; mild-moderate depressive illness and anxiety state 100-150:1000; PTSD 30:1000; adjustment disorders and distress 150:1000
  - emgoldstein 11y ago
    > There's no evidence that people with a mental illness pose a risk of harm to other people or to children. Of course not. The cause of helicopter parenting is irrational parents who perceive, obviously due to media stereotypes, that people with a mental illness cause a risk of harm to other people or to children. I love you, Weimerica. Don't ever change.
codingdave 11y ago
The laws vary by jurisdiction. Many parents that I know believe it is illegal to leave a child alone if they are under 12. Maybe it is in some locations, but not where I live. In my state and town, there is no statutory definition of when a child can be left alone. However, there are explicit warning that negligent decisions can result in other charges. And I think that is completely fair - some towns are safer than others, some children are more self sufficient than others, and every parent needs to make their own decisions. Hopefully educated and wise decisions.
rdtsc 11y ago
> is flirting with a visit from child protective services. No doubt. Co-worker let kids (probably 5-6 years old), play outside, in a cul-de-sac. While they were inside watching. Sure enough, anonymous neighbor called cops. CPS and cops got involved. Embarasing calls at work, monitoring from CPS (regular visits to "check" on them for a period of time), headaches, lost time. Heck, the neighbor might have just not liked the color of their lawn and they knew that calling CPS and cops about kids will ensure maximum punishment for minimum risk to them ("Hey, I was just thinking about the safety of the children"). Once those in power act irrationally about anything. That will always be exploited. It was exploited many years ago in the Soviet Union. Neighbors would have spats about goats eating grass on the wrong side of the fence. Then one of them would denounce the others as "enemies of the people" and bam! family sent to Siberia in no time.
- josephagoss 11y ago
  I do not trust child protection services, they mean well but they overuse their power on a 'feeling' and worse, 'career advancement'. My family was completely ripped apart and destroyed by the child protection services in the UK.
- guard-of-terra 11y ago
  When I hear stories like this I strongly feel we all should stop having children altogether.
- sampo 11y ago
  > the neighbor might have just not liked the color of their lawn Or maybe he was annoyed the the noise of kids playing outside. (I am not saying kids shouldn't play outside, just speculating on the motivation.)
rayiner 11y ago
I love being a parent. But I am beginning to intensely dislike other parents in my generation. I grew up with overprotective asian parents, but American millennial parents are a whole level of crazy above that.
abalashov 11y ago
We emigrated to the US when I was 6, and I started school a few days after our arrival. My parents were graduate students and we lived in a housing complex for foreign graduate students with families, but it would be more apt to call it a commune of sorts; it was extremely safe, collective, elaborately enclosed, and geographically separate both from campus and the rest of the town. I honestly can't imagine a safer place for kids. Every one of the 100+ residents had children, and there were lots of stay-at-home moms out in the backyard at pretty much all times. The one thing that all foreigners could agree on, from dozens of nationalities around the globe, was that it was completely normal for a school-aged child to get home from school by themselves and spend the afternoon and/or early evening alone, calling on neighbours or others on hand if they needed help. Practically, many of these graduate students struggled to survive on tiny stipends, and took (sometimes not so legal) jobs to make ends meet. They also had to work harder than any American to try to have a chance of staying in America after their studies were complete. Indiana state law and campus law enforcement did not take kindly to this. I was probably the only child of ex-Soviet extraction that was not at some point kidnapped by the university's security and turned over to an American foster family for two or three days while they sabre-rattled the parents with child neglect charges. These poor students had no money, no understanding of the US legal system, and they were helpless and scared. Many of them had to go through the "welcome to America, here's your middle finger!" experience. It was almost an established hazing ritual to be harassed by CPS/social services. This harassment was a routine occurrence, and after a while, I learned that university security were not our friends, subconsciously souring me on police for life when I otherwise had no traumatic experiences on which to base that. They were always watching us, profiling us, trying to identify patterns such as seeing a child out after dark (which is like 4:30 PM in the winter in northern Indiana) routinely. Did they not have anything better to do? It was absolutely bewildering for almost all of the residents to learn that US state law considered it child neglect to leave a child unattended until age twelve; this would be unthinkable in most places around the globe.

by beloch 11y ago

DanBC 11y ago

> Leaving a five-year-old unsupervised, even at home, is flirting with a visit from child protective services Most accidents happen in the home. Most people do a poor job of making their home safe for infants. (EG look at the number of people in the UK who buy socket covers but who don't bolt their TVs to the wall) Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by "leave a 5 year old unsupervised" - does this mean "parent in the home but in different room"? Or "parent pops out to the local shop for half an hour"? Because five year old children are far too young to be left unsupervised for anything over short lengths of time, and if a parent is regularly doing that they probably need a chat from child protection social services.

kuschku 11y ago
A 5 year old child is old enough to go to a grocery store, buy stuff, and walk back home. I’ve done it, all my neighbors did it, and everyone I know has done it. Kids being at home for an hour or 2 at that age is no issue either. It’s not something special – everyone does it.
- DanBC 11y ago
  Survivor bias.
  - kuschku 11y ago
    Everyone I know – literally everyone – did this. Walk to the library, walk to the bakery, walk to school, etc. Often around a kilometer each direction. From 5 on, as with 6 we had to walk to school for 1.4 kilometer, and back, so there was no alternative. And with 10, when many kids go to secondary school, we have to use public transit to get to school anyway, so many kids started at that age to take bus/metro/etc to go to other places, too.
    - deciplex 11y ago
      I think DanBC is being sarcastic in suggesting that the only reason you think this is normal is that all the kids who died at 5 years old while going to the grocery store, are no longer around to provide a counterexample because they're dead. But, maybe not. Poe's law rears its head once again.
- wslh 11y ago
  > A 5 year old child is old enough to go to a grocery store, buy stuff, and walk back home. I’ve done it, all my neighbors did it, and everyone I know has done it. Where?
  - kuschku 11y ago
    I live in Germany, but in the previous thread to this article we came to the conclusion that it’s the same in Finland, Germany, Japan, etc.
  - potatote 11y ago
    I was one of those kids. Grew up in a Southeast asian country. Shop snacks and stuff from grocery stories up to 5 blocks away from my house (blocks are about the same size as the ones in SF downtown). Beyond 5 blocks, my parents would not approve until I get to like 7 yrs.
brg 11y ago
Most accidents happen at home for the same reason most auto accidents happen within three miles of home; that's were we are most of the time.
- syllogism 11y ago
  Most deaths happen on Earth. If only we could get to Mars!
guard-of-terra 11y ago
Did "child protection social services" bear this child? Did they feed this child? Did then nourish with this child? Did they play with this child? Did they buy this child clothes? Why should then we ever hear any kind of chatter from them?

DanBC 11y ago

emgoldstein 11y ago

According to free-range child advocate Lenore Skenazy, there are a little over 100 stranger abductions per year in the US. [1]. Therefore, abductions are a not a big deal. According to Wikipedia, 100 years ago, there were about 100 lynchings per year in the US. [2] Therefore, lynching is a big deal. I love this meme about the media. Quick question: for you, personally, when was the last time you saw a media story about an abducted child? When was the last time you saw a media story about paranoid helicopter parents, etc, repeating the ideas you see above? In my experience, the ratio is 1:10 if not 1:20. There's a very straightforward reason why parents keep their kids indoors: the same parents, while outdoors, regularly encounter human beings that they wouldn't trust their kids around. Deinstitutionalization anyone? Free-range mental patients or free-range children: pick one. [3] [1] http://www.freerangekids.com/over-700-children-are-abducted-a-day-says-viral-video/ http://www.freerangekids.com/over-700-children-are-abducted-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_psychiatric_institutions#Deinstitutionalization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_psychiatric_institu...

DanBC 11y ago
> Deinstitutionalization anyone? Free-range mental patients Perinatal mental illness is a significant cause of death of women - in the UK suicide is the third leading cause of perinatal death. Many women experience mental illness during or after pregnancy. Ignorant, stigmatising views like yours about mental illness make it harder for women to seek help for their mental health problems. And your wider point is wrong. There's no evidence that people with a mental illness pose a risk of harm to other people or to children. https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/perinatal_web.pdf https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/perinatal_web.pdf Rates of perinatal mental health problems post-partum psychosis is about 2 women per 1,000 maternities; chronic serious MI is 2:1000; severe depressive illness 30:1000; mild-moderate depressive illness and anxiety state 100-150:1000; PTSD 30:1000; adjustment disorders and distress 150:1000
- emgoldstein 11y ago
  > There's no evidence that people with a mental illness pose a risk of harm to other people or to children. Of course not. The cause of helicopter parenting is irrational parents who perceive, obviously due to media stereotypes, that people with a mental illness cause a risk of harm to other people or to children. I love you, Weimerica. Don't ever change.

codingdave 11y ago

The laws vary by jurisdiction. Many parents that I know believe it is illegal to leave a child alone if they are under 12. Maybe it is in some locations, but not where I live. In my state and town, there is no statutory definition of when a child can be left alone. However, there are explicit warning that negligent decisions can result in other charges. And I think that is completely fair - some towns are safer than others, some children are more self sufficient than others, and every parent needs to make their own decisions. Hopefully educated and wise decisions.

rdtsc 11y ago

> is flirting with a visit from child protective services. No doubt. Co-worker let kids (probably 5-6 years old), play outside, in a cul-de-sac. While they were inside watching. Sure enough, anonymous neighbor called cops. CPS and cops got involved. Embarasing calls at work, monitoring from CPS (regular visits to "check" on them for a period of time), headaches, lost time. Heck, the neighbor might have just not liked the color of their lawn and they knew that calling CPS and cops about kids will ensure maximum punishment for minimum risk to them ("Hey, I was just thinking about the safety of the children"). Once those in power act irrationally about anything. That will always be exploited. It was exploited many years ago in the Soviet Union. Neighbors would have spats about goats eating grass on the wrong side of the fence. Then one of them would denounce the others as "enemies of the people" and bam! family sent to Siberia in no time.

josephagoss 11y ago
I do not trust child protection services, they mean well but they overuse their power on a 'feeling' and worse, 'career advancement'. My family was completely ripped apart and destroyed by the child protection services in the UK.
guard-of-terra 11y ago
When I hear stories like this I strongly feel we all should stop having children altogether.
sampo 11y ago
> the neighbor might have just not liked the color of their lawn Or maybe he was annoyed the the noise of kids playing outside. (I am not saying kids shouldn't play outside, just speculating on the motivation.)

rayiner 11y ago

I love being a parent. But I am beginning to intensely dislike other parents in my generation. I grew up with overprotective asian parents, but American millennial parents are a whole level of crazy above that.

abalashov 11y ago

We emigrated to the US when I was 6, and I started school a few days after our arrival. My parents were graduate students and we lived in a housing complex for foreign graduate students with families, but it would be more apt to call it a commune of sorts; it was extremely safe, collective, elaborately enclosed, and geographically separate both from campus and the rest of the town. I honestly can't imagine a safer place for kids. Every one of the 100+ residents had children, and there were lots of stay-at-home moms out in the backyard at pretty much all times. The one thing that all foreigners could agree on, from dozens of nationalities around the globe, was that it was completely normal for a school-aged child to get home from school by themselves and spend the afternoon and/or early evening alone, calling on neighbours or others on hand if they needed help. Practically, many of these graduate students struggled to survive on tiny stipends, and took (sometimes not so legal) jobs to make ends meet. They also had to work harder than any American to try to have a chance of staying in America after their studies were complete. Indiana state law and campus law enforcement did not take kindly to this. I was probably the only child of ex-Soviet extraction that was not at some point kidnapped by the university's security and turned over to an American foster family for two or three days while they sabre-rattled the parents with child neglect charges. These poor students had no money, no understanding of the US legal system, and they were helpless and scared. Many of them had to go through the "welcome to America, here's your middle finger!" experience. It was almost an established hazing ritual to be harassed by CPS/social services. This harassment was a routine occurrence, and after a while, I learned that university security were not our friends, subconsciously souring me on police for life when I otherwise had no traumatic experiences on which to base that. They were always watching us, profiling us, trying to identify patterns such as seeing a child out after dark (which is like 4:30 PM in the winter in northern Indiana) routinely. Did they not have anything better to do? It was absolutely bewildering for almost all of the residents to learn that US state law considered it child neglect to leave a child unattended until age twelve; this would be unthinkable in most places around the globe.