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Think about the song Amazing Grace: "How sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me; I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see". That was writt

Think about the song Amazing Grace: "How sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me; I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see". That was written by a guy who had abandoned his career as the captain of a slave-trading ship after having a spiritual awakening. The transcendental, mystical, transformative, touching-infinity experiences that people report from psychedelics go far beyond any philosophical concepts about "physical reality" or "consciousness". You don't need to hold any particular dogmatic beliefs to try out and perhaps benefit from psychedelics. You might feel at home with the people at /r/RationalPsychonaut: https://www.reddit.com/r/RationalPsychonaut/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RationalPsychonaut/ Of course, you make a lot of good points. People should use rationality and critical thinking. And some psychedelic users can certainly be annoying.

cnp 11y ago
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
MichaelGG 11y ago
I'd rate psychedelics on-par, impact-wise, around the same level as the birth and death of one of my children. I just don't see the need to say it goes beyond physical reality - there's just no proof of that. Why can't we be impressed and amazed with what our brains are capable of, with chemistry alone?
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  >I just don't see the need to say it goes beyond physical reality - there's just no proof of that. What physical reality are you talking about? To the best we can ascertain, we only have subjective experiences of perceptions of electromagnetic phenomena. We don't get to perceive physical reality, only our own interpretation of what is postulated as an image of the physical reality. It appears that there can be no proof either way whether a physical reality actually exists or not. All we can know is that we have a subjective experience. We can hypothesize that it arises from some other "thing", but there is no way we can know. Also, I'm not sure anyone in this thread chain has claimed that consciousness goes beyond physical reality. I think you are the only who has assumed a physical reality (also, with no "proof").
  - oldmanjay 11y ago
    Reliable computing technology is as revealing of an objectively existing physical reality as I need. The rules are solidly understood, do not change depending on our perception, and any "evidence" to the contrary that I've heard requires philosophical thought experiments.
    - jsprogrammer 11y ago
      >Reliable computing technology is as revealing of an objectively existing physical reality as I need. What do you mean by this? All you need is Boolean algebra to derive every reliable aspect of our computing technology. 01~& Yes, you need a machine that can "execute it", but every reliable thing that a current computing machine will do is predicted by consecutive and parallel applications of the truth table: a|b|a~&b -|-|---- 0|0| 1 0|1| 1 1|0| 1 1|1| 0 Do you mean that Boolean algebra is the objectively existing physical reality; is a part of the objectively existing physical reality; or, is only evidence of an objectively existing physical reality? If it is only evidence, in what way is it evidence?
- kirsebaer 11y ago
  You remind me of Rabbi Zalman Schacter-Shalomi. He was inspired by LSD to explore the mystical side of Judaism. But aspects of the LSD experience bothered him: > It also wasn't Jewish enough for me. A universe in which everything was happening, regardless of whether it was kosher or not, wasn't Jewish enough. http://books.google.com/books?id=HZq2YrPxL1IC http://books.google.com/books?id=HZq2YrPxL1IC http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/us/zalman-schachter-shalomi-jewish-pioneer-dies-at-89.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/us/zalman-schachter-shalom... Perhaps you are also a bit bothered by some aspects of your experiences that do not totally agree with materialism? Excuse me, but do you possibly feel ashamed to have thought certain things while tripping, perhaps concerned that you were delusional? Or maybe not, not everybody thinks that way. Are you truly "impressed and amazed" by chemistry alone? Many feel that modern materialism is a cheap and disappointing answer to the question of what is really actually going on in the universe, the sum total of everything that is and will be. But of course chemistry is part of it, and it is really amazing.
  - MichaelGG 11y ago
    No, I'm not bothered. I find it richly rewarding. I just know that the real world, nature, is worth admiring and being totally impressed and blown away with. As an example, I find life explained in natural terms and diversity of life via evolution to be far more inspiring and impressive (and elegant) than life explained via divine will. Not that you're suggesting that but just as a comparison. I think it's worth encouraging people to be impressed with physical reality, with the amazing stuff that gets produced that way, rather than needing to discard reality as if it wasn't sufficient enough. For an even simpler and perhaps baser phenomenon: the female form, for me. Without going into details, I find it rather amazing how something so "ordinary" can, at times, produce such powerful emotion/experience (not even referring to actual sex). Sure, perhaps it's not quite as strong as psychedelics, but I've yet to hear anyone seriously suggest that physical attraction needs explanations beyond materialism. Why should acid be qualitatively different? (I've experienced real delusions, too - all seems perfectly in line with a materialistic view of the mind.)
  - Nursie 11y ago
    >> any feel that modern materialism is a cheap and disappointing answer to the question of what is really actually going on in the universe, the sum total of everything that is and will be. And these many have no better answer, in fact all they ever, ever have is some handwaving about feelings and a dietary supplement to sell you.
- codeshaman 11y ago
  To understand, you have to get out of your current 'reality context'. It's very easy actually. A powerful psychedelic trip leads to a couple of simple realisations: - you are God that created this Universe experiencing the sensation of being separate, weak and mortal within this body - all living beings are the same - God experiencing himself subjectively. Including the cells in your body - God in a different 'vehicle'. Hence 'we are one'. Hence the necessity to be respectful towards all of nature - they're all you and you will experience all the interactions with your 'current' self. - you have been here since the beginning of time and will 'exist' forever. - Life is a trip, a story, a simulation. You will wake up from it one day. It's hard to believe it, because it's so 'real'. But everybody will get 'it' when they die.
  - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
    Of course, the correlations between these "realizations" and any actual reality may be zero. That is, "realization" implies that there is some truth that you are realizing is true. But these things may well be not actually true, just impressions from using chemicals to temporarily alter your brains. They may not even be true on the next trip! Acid trips as a way of actually discovering truth (rather than perception) seems to me to be hopelessly naive.

cnp 11y ago

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

MichaelGG 11y ago

I'd rate psychedelics on-par, impact-wise, around the same level as the birth and death of one of my children. I just don't see the need to say it goes beyond physical reality - there's just no proof of that. Why can't we be impressed and amazed with what our brains are capable of, with chemistry alone?

jsprogrammer 11y ago
>I just don't see the need to say it goes beyond physical reality - there's just no proof of that. What physical reality are you talking about? To the best we can ascertain, we only have subjective experiences of perceptions of electromagnetic phenomena. We don't get to perceive physical reality, only our own interpretation of what is postulated as an image of the physical reality. It appears that there can be no proof either way whether a physical reality actually exists or not. All we can know is that we have a subjective experience. We can hypothesize that it arises from some other "thing", but there is no way we can know. Also, I'm not sure anyone in this thread chain has claimed that consciousness goes beyond physical reality. I think you are the only who has assumed a physical reality (also, with no "proof").
- oldmanjay 11y ago
  Reliable computing technology is as revealing of an objectively existing physical reality as I need. The rules are solidly understood, do not change depending on our perception, and any "evidence" to the contrary that I've heard requires philosophical thought experiments.
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    >Reliable computing technology is as revealing of an objectively existing physical reality as I need. What do you mean by this? All you need is Boolean algebra to derive every reliable aspect of our computing technology. 01~& Yes, you need a machine that can "execute it", but every reliable thing that a current computing machine will do is predicted by consecutive and parallel applications of the truth table: a|b|a~&b -|-|---- 0|0| 1 0|1| 1 1|0| 1 1|1| 0 Do you mean that Boolean algebra is the objectively existing physical reality; is a part of the objectively existing physical reality; or, is only evidence of an objectively existing physical reality? If it is only evidence, in what way is it evidence?
kirsebaer 11y ago
You remind me of Rabbi Zalman Schacter-Shalomi. He was inspired by LSD to explore the mystical side of Judaism. But aspects of the LSD experience bothered him: > It also wasn't Jewish enough for me. A universe in which everything was happening, regardless of whether it was kosher or not, wasn't Jewish enough. http://books.google.com/books?id=HZq2YrPxL1IC http://books.google.com/books?id=HZq2YrPxL1IC http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/us/zalman-schachter-shalomi-jewish-pioneer-dies-at-89.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/us/zalman-schachter-shalom... Perhaps you are also a bit bothered by some aspects of your experiences that do not totally agree with materialism? Excuse me, but do you possibly feel ashamed to have thought certain things while tripping, perhaps concerned that you were delusional? Or maybe not, not everybody thinks that way. Are you truly "impressed and amazed" by chemistry alone? Many feel that modern materialism is a cheap and disappointing answer to the question of what is really actually going on in the universe, the sum total of everything that is and will be. But of course chemistry is part of it, and it is really amazing.
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  No, I'm not bothered. I find it richly rewarding. I just know that the real world, nature, is worth admiring and being totally impressed and blown away with. As an example, I find life explained in natural terms and diversity of life via evolution to be far more inspiring and impressive (and elegant) than life explained via divine will. Not that you're suggesting that but just as a comparison. I think it's worth encouraging people to be impressed with physical reality, with the amazing stuff that gets produced that way, rather than needing to discard reality as if it wasn't sufficient enough. For an even simpler and perhaps baser phenomenon: the female form, for me. Without going into details, I find it rather amazing how something so "ordinary" can, at times, produce such powerful emotion/experience (not even referring to actual sex). Sure, perhaps it's not quite as strong as psychedelics, but I've yet to hear anyone seriously suggest that physical attraction needs explanations beyond materialism. Why should acid be qualitatively different? (I've experienced real delusions, too - all seems perfectly in line with a materialistic view of the mind.)
- Nursie 11y ago
  >> any feel that modern materialism is a cheap and disappointing answer to the question of what is really actually going on in the universe, the sum total of everything that is and will be. And these many have no better answer, in fact all they ever, ever have is some handwaving about feelings and a dietary supplement to sell you.
codeshaman 11y ago
To understand, you have to get out of your current 'reality context'. It's very easy actually. A powerful psychedelic trip leads to a couple of simple realisations: - you are God that created this Universe experiencing the sensation of being separate, weak and mortal within this body - all living beings are the same - God experiencing himself subjectively. Including the cells in your body - God in a different 'vehicle'. Hence 'we are one'. Hence the necessity to be respectful towards all of nature - they're all you and you will experience all the interactions with your 'current' self. - you have been here since the beginning of time and will 'exist' forever. - Life is a trip, a story, a simulation. You will wake up from it one day. It's hard to believe it, because it's so 'real'. But everybody will get 'it' when they die.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  Of course, the correlations between these "realizations" and any actual reality may be zero. That is, "realization" implies that there is some truth that you are realizing is true. But these things may well be not actually true, just impressions from using chemicals to temporarily alter your brains. They may not even be true on the next trip! Acid trips as a way of actually discovering truth (rather than perception) seems to me to be hopelessly naive.