5 ms·

Java, just the language,is absolutely more secure. Just be careful what you're using in the JRE else you might negate that gained security[1]. Of course so ma

Java, just the language,is absolutely more secure. Just be careful what you're using in the JRE else you might negate that gained security[1]. Of course so many C libraries have vulns too, just not included in one commonly used package that runs on every operating system it supports. [1] - https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list.php?vendor_id=93&product_id=19117&version_id=&page=1&hasexp=0&opdos=0&opec=0&opov=0&opcsrf=0&opgpriv=0&opsqli=0&opxss=0&opdirt=0&opmemc=0&ophttprs=0&opbyp=0&opfileinc=0&opginf=0&cvssscoremin=7&cvssscoremax=0&year=0&month=0&cweid=0&order=1&trc=208&sha=dc2bd354d0ef968392f7bac5811742745c04e811 https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list.php?vendor_id=...

pjmlp 11y ago
All languages allow to write code with vulnerabilities. Memory safe ones have logical programming errors and possible runtime issues, which is Java's case. C just adds memory corruption to the set of issues one has to worry about.
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  "C just adds memory corruption to the set of issues one has to worry about." That's a very casual way to say that C adds an entire class of errors that lets attackers own your machine with the slightest mistake in the most common coding situations. Memory safety is such a huge increase in security over C that it isn't even funny that people use C where not necessary. Type-safety plus good type system gets a start on knocking out data and interface errors. Type systems with context, or just Design-by-Contract, can knock out more interface errors. So, a good type system, type safety, and memory safety should be the baseline for reliable or secure systems. C tosses out the whole baseline in exchange for... running a bit faster or lazy programmers? Note: I'm talking in general rather than building on existing C projects, where using C makes some sense.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    Yeah, I should have let the "just" out. There are a whole class of errors caused by C's memory corruption "feature" that I can happily live without. C tosses safety away, because its designers were lazy to implement a proper compiler given what the computing world was doing outside AT&T. Bjarne wasn't also quite found of it, but he had to compromise to get adoption, given his employer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO0PXYMVGSU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO0PXYMVGSU
    - nickpsecurity 11y ago
      Thanks for the link. It's all good so long as you keep countering the myth of C having good design like you did here [1] and I backed you up on here [2]. Their house of cards (i.e. ideology) will come down easier as we continue kick its foundation out from underneath. ;) Far as resource constraints, there's been interesting work along those lines, too. I mean, we have obvious Modula-2/Lilith project. However, it was cool that a recent project used ATS language to program an 8-bit microcontroller. That's on top of safe ASM, embedded DSL's like Ivory language, and stuff like Cyclone. C proponents' excuses for its design advantages are getting thin, thin, thin... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10268614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10268614 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10273656 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10273656
      - pjmlp 11y ago
        There is some interesting content here regarding how older languages were ignored in the process. History and Spirit of C and C++ @ NDC 2015 https://vimeo.com/132192250 https://vimeo.com/132192250
        nickpsecurity 11y ago
        Appreciate it. Watching it now as I have some spare time. Seems good so far.
        nickpsecurity 11y ago
        Finished. Was a pretty good video. I did a write-up of it below on Schneier's blog to justify eliminating C because it's provably Bad by Design. All due to limitations of the PDP's and, new to me, the EDSAC. Also more of a rip-off of BCPL than I thought before. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/10/friday_squid_bl_497.html#c6708072 https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/10/friday_squid_...

pjmlp 11y ago

All languages allow to write code with vulnerabilities. Memory safe ones have logical programming errors and possible runtime issues, which is Java's case. C just adds memory corruption to the set of issues one has to worry about.

nickpsecurity 11y ago
"C just adds memory corruption to the set of issues one has to worry about." That's a very casual way to say that C adds an entire class of errors that lets attackers own your machine with the slightest mistake in the most common coding situations. Memory safety is such a huge increase in security over C that it isn't even funny that people use C where not necessary. Type-safety plus good type system gets a start on knocking out data and interface errors. Type systems with context, or just Design-by-Contract, can knock out more interface errors. So, a good type system, type safety, and memory safety should be the baseline for reliable or secure systems. C tosses out the whole baseline in exchange for... running a bit faster or lazy programmers? Note: I'm talking in general rather than building on existing C projects, where using C makes some sense.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  Yeah, I should have let the "just" out. There are a whole class of errors caused by C's memory corruption "feature" that I can happily live without. C tosses safety away, because its designers were lazy to implement a proper compiler given what the computing world was doing outside AT&T. Bjarne wasn't also quite found of it, but he had to compromise to get adoption, given his employer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO0PXYMVGSU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO0PXYMVGSU
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    Thanks for the link. It's all good so long as you keep countering the myth of C having good design like you did here [1] and I backed you up on here [2]. Their house of cards (i.e. ideology) will come down easier as we continue kick its foundation out from underneath. ;) Far as resource constraints, there's been interesting work along those lines, too. I mean, we have obvious Modula-2/Lilith project. However, it was cool that a recent project used ATS language to program an 8-bit microcontroller. That's on top of safe ASM, embedded DSL's like Ivory language, and stuff like Cyclone. C proponents' excuses for its design advantages are getting thin, thin, thin... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10268614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10268614 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10273656 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10273656
    - pjmlp 11y ago
      There is some interesting content here regarding how older languages were ignored in the process. History and Spirit of C and C++ @ NDC 2015 https://vimeo.com/132192250 https://vimeo.com/132192250
      - nickpsecurity 11y ago
        Appreciate it. Watching it now as I have some spare time. Seems good so far.
      - nickpsecurity 11y ago
        Finished. Was a pretty good video. I did a write-up of it below on Schneier's blog to justify eliminating C because it's provably Bad by Design. All due to limitations of the PDP's and, new to me, the EDSAC. Also more of a rip-off of BCPL than I thought before. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/10/friday_squid_bl_497.html#c6708072 https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/10/friday_squid_...