5 ms·

Reviving Smalltalk-78: The First Modern Smalltalk Lives Again (2014) [pdf]

81 points by fniephaus 11y ago

genry_porter 11y ago
Smalltalk running in a browser with the help of JavaScript and cloud... They definetely didn't planned that in 1978!
- pavlov 11y ago
  Actually they did. It's just loading a Smalltalk image over the network into a VM. That's fundamentally what the Smalltalk systems of the '70s were designed to do.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
vajrabum 11y ago
If you want to play online: http://lively-web.org/users/bert/Smalltalk-78.html http://lively-web.org/users/bert/Smalltalk-78.html
- incepted 11y ago
  It took a minute to load, brought my beefy laptop to its knees and every character key press takes half a second to display... Probably the most faithful recreation of the Smalltalk I used to use in the late 80s.
  - timrowledge 11y ago
    Either your 'beefy laptop' isn't so beefy or you're exaggerating for some odd reason. On my four year old iMac (and we all know macs are soon slow by comparison to real computers, right?) it took 15 or sec to load (which is almost all network time) and typing could handle the fastest I could hit keys.
- bertfreudenberg 11y ago
  Someone broke that page (it's a Lively page, meaning it's editable by anyone). Here is a stand-alone version, running ThingLab: http://www.cdglabs.org/thinglab/ http://www.cdglabs.org/thinglab/
sebastianconcpt 11y ago
And there is no reason not to make it load a modern image too: https://bertfreudenberg.github.io/SqueakJS/ https://bertfreudenberg.github.io/SqueakJS/
rbanffy 11y ago
I like to joke (only half-joke) Smalltalk-80 makes Java-2015 look somewhat primitive in comparison. Around PARC is the place where the future was least evenly distributed.
- mpweiher 11y ago
  You mean it's a great improvement on its successors?
- coldtea 11y ago
  >I like to joke (only half-joke) Smalltalk-80 makes Java-2015 look somewhat primitive in comparison. It's not a half-joke, it's a fact. The only places I'd say Java is better is number of libraries (obviously) and compiler/GC (whose legacy comes from later Smalltalk-oriented works anyway). If Smalltalk images could work in some hybrid mode, where you get all the regular benefits, but with a "normal" editor and/or IDE too, and in plain text, it would be golden.
  - incepted 11y ago
    > It's not a half-joke, it's a fact. Smalltalk advocates never fail to entertain. Java has HotSpot, IDE's that actually perform automatic refactoring (Smalltalk's IDE's are naturally limited because the language is dynamically typed), the library ecosystem, sheer speed, standard libraries, debuggers that actually work, etc... Smalltalk never succeeded for a good reason. It was a fantastic innovation back in its time but it never turned into a viable development ecosystem.
    - coldtea 11y ago
      >Smalltalk advocates never fail to entertain. Are there Java advocates still in 2015? In any case, you've missed the whole: "Java is better in number of libraries (obviously) and compiler/GC" thing I wrote -- and re-stated it as if it was some kind of counter-argument to my comment. Also, regarding "Java has HotSpot", you do know that's based on the Strongtalk VM right? >Smalltalk never succeeded for a good reason. Yes: companies sold it commercially instead of having it widely available, and SUN spend millions marketing Java.

81 points by fniephaus 11y ago

genry_porter 11y ago

Smalltalk running in a browser with the help of JavaScript and cloud... They definetely didn't planned that in 1978!

pavlov 11y ago
Actually they did. It's just loading a Smalltalk image over the network into a VM. That's fundamentally what the Smalltalk systems of the '70s were designed to do.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

vajrabum 11y ago

If you want to play online: http://lively-web.org/users/bert/Smalltalk-78.html http://lively-web.org/users/bert/Smalltalk-78.html

incepted 11y ago
It took a minute to load, brought my beefy laptop to its knees and every character key press takes half a second to display... Probably the most faithful recreation of the Smalltalk I used to use in the late 80s.
- timrowledge 11y ago
  Either your 'beefy laptop' isn't so beefy or you're exaggerating for some odd reason. On my four year old iMac (and we all know macs are soon slow by comparison to real computers, right?) it took 15 or sec to load (which is almost all network time) and typing could handle the fastest I could hit keys.
bertfreudenberg 11y ago
Someone broke that page (it's a Lively page, meaning it's editable by anyone). Here is a stand-alone version, running ThingLab: http://www.cdglabs.org/thinglab/ http://www.cdglabs.org/thinglab/

sebastianconcpt 11y ago

And there is no reason not to make it load a modern image too: https://bertfreudenberg.github.io/SqueakJS/ https://bertfreudenberg.github.io/SqueakJS/

rbanffy 11y ago

I like to joke (only half-joke) Smalltalk-80 makes Java-2015 look somewhat primitive in comparison. Around PARC is the place where the future was least evenly distributed.

mpweiher 11y ago
You mean it's a great improvement on its successors?
coldtea 11y ago
>I like to joke (only half-joke) Smalltalk-80 makes Java-2015 look somewhat primitive in comparison. It's not a half-joke, it's a fact. The only places I'd say Java is better is number of libraries (obviously) and compiler/GC (whose legacy comes from later Smalltalk-oriented works anyway). If Smalltalk images could work in some hybrid mode, where you get all the regular benefits, but with a "normal" editor and/or IDE too, and in plain text, it would be golden.
- incepted 11y ago
  > It's not a half-joke, it's a fact. Smalltalk advocates never fail to entertain. Java has HotSpot, IDE's that actually perform automatic refactoring (Smalltalk's IDE's are naturally limited because the language is dynamically typed), the library ecosystem, sheer speed, standard libraries, debuggers that actually work, etc... Smalltalk never succeeded for a good reason. It was a fantastic innovation back in its time but it never turned into a viable development ecosystem.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >Smalltalk advocates never fail to entertain. Are there Java advocates still in 2015? In any case, you've missed the whole: "Java is better in number of libraries (obviously) and compiler/GC" thing I wrote -- and re-stated it as if it was some kind of counter-argument to my comment. Also, regarding "Java has HotSpot", you do know that's based on the Strongtalk VM right? >Smalltalk never succeeded for a good reason. Yes: companies sold it commercially instead of having it widely available, and SUN spend millions marketing Java.