26 ms·

Sorry, I did not get what you are saying. How is this related to the Prisoner's Dilemma? In an Islamic system, the rich would have an obligation toward the res

by azth 11y ago

Sorry, I did not get what you are saying. How is this related to the Prisoner's Dilemma? In an Islamic system, the rich would have an obligation toward the rest of society to lift it up, particularly in the case where there is a massive wealth gap, as we see today. The poor are consistently getting penalized, whereas the rich just get richer. This article was posted here on HN not too long ago: http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21663262-why-low-income-americans-often-have-pay-more-its-expensive-be-poor http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21663262-why-low...

SixSigma 11y ago
> there were no more poor people ... because everyone did their duties. In a society where people are scarce and visible, the social contract is enforced by association. Just like everyone looked after each other in most places around the world in small villages etc. - iterated prisoner's dilemma In a city of 20 million people this breaks down. - more defectors
- azth 11y ago
  This was not a small society. Look up the Ummayad Caliphate[0] to see how large it reached. And yes, with more people there is a higher likelyhood that not everyone will do their duties. However, all that is needed is a critical mass (whether in the number of people, or the total wealth produced) that does. As I pointed out, if the ultra wealthy were forced to "pay up" in order to help out the poor and oppressed, we would be in a very different place. Not to mention all the tax money wasted on the military and invading other countries. The other point I brought up is that of dealing with interest, and other exploitative transactions, which are forbidden Islamically. These aid the wealthy, and hurt the poor. All these factors go hand in hand to raise the quality of life for society. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate
  - SixSigma 11y ago
    Now you want to use force ...
    - azth 11y ago
      Would you consider having the IRS come after someone because they don't pay their taxes as using force? This is similar. Islamically, the poor have a right to get money from Zakat; which is paid by the rich. In other words, the rich owe money to the poor. This is a fundamentally different system from what we see today in most countries.
      - SixSigma 11y ago
        Yes, I would consider it force. A few posts ago you said it all worked nicely and there were no poor because people did their duty. But now in the Zakat system, you say that the rich are forced to give money to the poor. It is not fundamentally different from a basic social welfare economy like much of Europe.
        azth 11y ago
        It's different in the sense how it is looked at. When you know that not all the money you have is your own, that part of it belongs to the poor, who have a right to claim it[0]. This is different from having it seen as a "burden" of sort. > A few posts ago you said it all worked nicely and there were no poor because people did their duty. Well, there is no contradiction between the two. The people did they duty and paid their Zakat. People were generally more pious back then. It wouldn't have been too hard for them to hide their money -- not everything was tracked the way it is today :-) [0] http://quran.com/70/24-25 http://quran.com/70/24-25

by azth 11y ago

SixSigma 11y ago

> there were no more poor people ... because everyone did their duties. In a society where people are scarce and visible, the social contract is enforced by association. Just like everyone looked after each other in most places around the world in small villages etc. - iterated prisoner's dilemma In a city of 20 million people this breaks down. - more defectors

azth 11y ago
This was not a small society. Look up the Ummayad Caliphate[0] to see how large it reached. And yes, with more people there is a higher likelyhood that not everyone will do their duties. However, all that is needed is a critical mass (whether in the number of people, or the total wealth produced) that does. As I pointed out, if the ultra wealthy were forced to "pay up" in order to help out the poor and oppressed, we would be in a very different place. Not to mention all the tax money wasted on the military and invading other countries. The other point I brought up is that of dealing with interest, and other exploitative transactions, which are forbidden Islamically. These aid the wealthy, and hurt the poor. All these factors go hand in hand to raise the quality of life for society. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate
- SixSigma 11y ago
  Now you want to use force ...
  - azth 11y ago
    Would you consider having the IRS come after someone because they don't pay their taxes as using force? This is similar. Islamically, the poor have a right to get money from Zakat; which is paid by the rich. In other words, the rich owe money to the poor. This is a fundamentally different system from what we see today in most countries.
    - SixSigma 11y ago
      Yes, I would consider it force. A few posts ago you said it all worked nicely and there were no poor because people did their duty. But now in the Zakat system, you say that the rich are forced to give money to the poor. It is not fundamentally different from a basic social welfare economy like much of Europe.
      - azth 11y ago
        It's different in the sense how it is looked at. When you know that not all the money you have is your own, that part of it belongs to the poor, who have a right to claim it[0]. This is different from having it seen as a "burden" of sort. > A few posts ago you said it all worked nicely and there were no poor because people did their duty. Well, there is no contradiction between the two. The people did they duty and paid their Zakat. People were generally more pious back then. It wouldn't have been too hard for them to hide their money -- not everything was tracked the way it is today :-) [0] http://quran.com/70/24-25 http://quran.com/70/24-25