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Look at what the big corporations around us are doing. Capitalism is about maximizing profit, with seemingly no regard for ethics or morals. Things like opening

by azth 11y ago

Look at what the big corporations around us are doing. Capitalism is about maximizing profit, with seemingly no regard for ethics or morals. Things like opening slave shops in China for cheap manufacturing, with horrible working conditions? That would be banned Islamically, because humans have the right to work in safe places, and in decent conditions. HFT and whatever Wall street is up to? Same thing. It's all exploitative and benefits only a few, while harming most. Edit: sharing risk on certain transactions, and paying taxes are two different things. Edit: another example: what about mind numbing advertisements? What about ads for prescription only medication? Purely a product of capitalism. Sexist car advertisements with naked women in them? Yep. Edit: isn't tax evasion by inversion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_inversion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_inversion) also a product of capitalism?

BerislavLopac 11y ago
"with seemingly no regard for ethics or morals" Are you saying that economic systems have morality? And that all capitalist lack ethics and morals? There are many different forms of the two -- who is to decide which form is acceptable? Again, the reason for everything happening in the society is not any single political and economical system -- like soylent green, it's the people.
- azth 11y ago
  On their own, no, purely economic systems don't have anything to do with morality. This is why the Islamic system is different, it is not a purely economic system, but a comprehensive one, which does include morality. You are right, it is the people. But, left to their own whim, people will do terrible things. We have seen this time and time again, all throughout history.
  - BerislavLopac 11y ago
    "left to their own whim" It's illusion to believe that there is anything except "people's own whim". It's always the question of someone's whim, the question is only if you will allow me to decide based on my own whim or you will force or persuade me to follow your whim. I'm not saying that we always have full conscious control over our actions -- quite the contrary, indeed -- but in nearly all cases people act according to their own interests (perceived or real) or values.
    - azth 11y ago
      Well, going back to the original issue, the Islamic system has already made the decision that the rich owe the poor part of their wealth; and it disallows exploitative financial practices. Hence, it is a more fair system, that upkeeps a good quality of life for people in the society. All this while still allowing people to act on their own interest and accumulate wealth if they wish so.
      - BerislavLopac 11y ago
        First, systems can hardly make any decisions, but I understand what you mean. And I believe that this system is quite fair, but so are many more theoretical systems that have been proposed throughout the ages. My point is that none of them has ever been implemented on a sustainable basis; in fact, I believe that implementing a system by decree is not possible in the long term; such a system can only come by organically. And of all the systems that have historically developed in an organic way, I would be ready to suggest that capitalism is the most fair we have seen so far; certainly much more fair than, say, feudalism and slavery.
        azth 11y ago
        > in fact, I believe that implementing a system by decree is not possible in the long term; Why not, given that the Islamic system was more or less "decreed" in a sense, but at the same time, lasted for over 1000 years? We are still struggling with all the other organic systems, since, well practically forever now.
        BerislavLopac 11y ago
        I don't know the facts, but I have a strong feeling that your view of that system is very idealistic and, at the very least, incomplete.
        orxornot 11y ago
        You mean people who are born rich and poor stand an equal chance of reaching success in america? you should take a look at the nordic countries
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Are you saying that economic systems have morality? Economic systems are about how scarce resources are allocated. The choice of the mechanism for doing this is always, inherently, based on a value system (possibly an extremely simple one consisting of a single value proposition). In that sense, any economic systems involves a moral choice -- to say that a particular economic systems has "no regard for ethics or morals" really usually means that that system is perceived to have no regard for the the value propositions that the speaker believes to define correct morality.
  - BerislavLopac 11y ago
    Well, no economic system exists in its own right; they're all just human interpretations of a large number of human decisions and actions. So it's not an economic system that involves a moral choice; it's moral choices that, on scale, get interpreted as economic systems. That being said, I absolutely agree with your final statement.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> Capitalism is about maximizing profit, with seemingly no regard for ethics or morals. The idea that organizing a system of legal structures (particularly, property rights) the way that capitalism does is not one made with "no regard for ethics or morals" is incorrect; instead, it reflects a decision that doing so is a moral good, either intrinsically (e.g., that the structure of capitalism directly reflects moral axioms, a common argument from those who hold to a view of "natural rights" to property that align with the structure of capitalist property rights) or because it serves some other good (the usually "other good" referenced is the common good from an aggregate utilitarian perspective, with reference to the optimality of markets in maximizing realized utility in the absence of externalities under the assumptions of rational choice theory.)

by azth 11y ago

BerislavLopac 11y ago

"with seemingly no regard for ethics or morals" Are you saying that economic systems have morality? And that all capitalist lack ethics and morals? There are many different forms of the two -- who is to decide which form is acceptable? Again, the reason for everything happening in the society is not any single political and economical system -- like soylent green, it's the people.

azth 11y ago
On their own, no, purely economic systems don't have anything to do with morality. This is why the Islamic system is different, it is not a purely economic system, but a comprehensive one, which does include morality. You are right, it is the people. But, left to their own whim, people will do terrible things. We have seen this time and time again, all throughout history.
- BerislavLopac 11y ago
  "left to their own whim" It's illusion to believe that there is anything except "people's own whim". It's always the question of someone's whim, the question is only if you will allow me to decide based on my own whim or you will force or persuade me to follow your whim. I'm not saying that we always have full conscious control over our actions -- quite the contrary, indeed -- but in nearly all cases people act according to their own interests (perceived or real) or values.
  - azth 11y ago
    Well, going back to the original issue, the Islamic system has already made the decision that the rich owe the poor part of their wealth; and it disallows exploitative financial practices. Hence, it is a more fair system, that upkeeps a good quality of life for people in the society. All this while still allowing people to act on their own interest and accumulate wealth if they wish so.
    - BerislavLopac 11y ago
      First, systems can hardly make any decisions, but I understand what you mean. And I believe that this system is quite fair, but so are many more theoretical systems that have been proposed throughout the ages. My point is that none of them has ever been implemented on a sustainable basis; in fact, I believe that implementing a system by decree is not possible in the long term; such a system can only come by organically. And of all the systems that have historically developed in an organic way, I would be ready to suggest that capitalism is the most fair we have seen so far; certainly much more fair than, say, feudalism and slavery.
      - azth 11y ago
        > in fact, I believe that implementing a system by decree is not possible in the long term; Why not, given that the Islamic system was more or less "decreed" in a sense, but at the same time, lasted for over 1000 years? We are still struggling with all the other organic systems, since, well practically forever now.
        BerislavLopac 11y ago
        I don't know the facts, but I have a strong feeling that your view of that system is very idealistic and, at the very least, incomplete.
      - orxornot 11y ago
        You mean people who are born rich and poor stand an equal chance of reaching success in america? you should take a look at the nordic countries
dragonwriter 11y ago
> Are you saying that economic systems have morality? Economic systems are about how scarce resources are allocated. The choice of the mechanism for doing this is always, inherently, based on a value system (possibly an extremely simple one consisting of a single value proposition). In that sense, any economic systems involves a moral choice -- to say that a particular economic systems has "no regard for ethics or morals" really usually means that that system is perceived to have no regard for the the value propositions that the speaker believes to define correct morality.
- BerislavLopac 11y ago
  Well, no economic system exists in its own right; they're all just human interpretations of a large number of human decisions and actions. So it's not an economic system that involves a moral choice; it's moral choices that, on scale, get interpreted as economic systems. That being said, I absolutely agree with your final statement.

dragonwriter 11y ago

> Capitalism is about maximizing profit, with seemingly no regard for ethics or morals. The idea that organizing a system of legal structures (particularly, property rights) the way that capitalism does is not one made with "no regard for ethics or morals" is incorrect; instead, it reflects a decision that doing so is a moral good, either intrinsically (e.g., that the structure of capitalism directly reflects moral axioms, a common argument from those who hold to a view of "natural rights" to property that align with the structure of capitalist property rights) or because it serves some other good (the usually "other good" referenced is the common good from an aggregate utilitarian perspective, with reference to the optimality of markets in maximizing realized utility in the absence of externalities under the assumptions of rational choice theory.)