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For decades, government ______ only to find out later that it was really bad. The social engineering has got to stop. A free people should not be subject to th

For decades, government ______ only to find out later that it was really bad. The social engineering has got to stop. A free people should not be subject to the latest schemes of self-appointed masterminds. The most evident and dangerous venue for such engineering is the public schools, in which the government subjects our children to every sort of social experiment, and what have we to show for it?

amalag 11y ago
The US is somewhat unique in that there is a lot less tradition. Many "Old world" countries have millenia of established culture. How to live and eat healthy. Instead the US falls back to experimental science and corporations to define good health.
- enlightenedfool 11y ago
  I view the "established culture" you mention as science too..based on certain observations. It's not that all traditional methods are inferior or superior. We constantly re-evaluate as we evolve.
  - irixusr 11y ago
    I've just become a father and my kid has very slight jaundice, not enough to have to do anything about it. But it did get me thinking, "how was jaundice dealt with before"? Considering 10% (??) of kids have bad jaundice that's a huge evolutionary pressure to either eliminate it (by favoring kids with larger livers) or somehow deal with it. Well my wife's (who's from a third-world and (formerly) most isolated country in the world) grandma (eldest of 13) explained it to me: She's always taken newborn's and placed them by the window for an hour. That'll do it! Then I read the history of neonatal jaundice care and I was shocked to learn that light therapy for jaundice wasn't discovered until the 50s (when a doctor noticed that newborns under the care of a nurse with particular habits fared better) and widely practiced until the 70s! +1 for folksy medicine!
enlightenedfool 11y ago
Well, I guess government follows the scientific conclusions and recommendations. Some might turn out to be wrong and we unlearn them. Science does make mistakes, but that's the best we've got. We can't leave it to intuitions of the masses.
- bobcostas55 11y ago
  >I guess government follows the scientific conclusions and recommendations. Come on now.
- clarkmoody 11y ago
  A naive view, at best. You're forgetting all about politics and special interests. > We can't leave it to intuitions of the masses. Precisely the mindset of the power elite that gets us into so much trouble.
  - enlightenedfool 11y ago
    Well, take vaccinations for example. Would you better leave it to the people to decide? I'm sure half won't take them. EDIT: I do understand the corporate influence, but we could find a way to build unbiased scientific institutions if with collective global will.
    - lackbeard 11y ago
      Letting people choose to not vaccinate their children will self correct. We'll lose herd immunity, a lot of people will die, and then everyone will know how awesome vaccines are, just like they did in the 60s. Then the cycle will begin anew. I lean toward valuing individual rights over all else, but this scenario does present a serious challenge to that worldview. Another contributor to the problem is that people trust science a lot less today than 2 generations ago. They've seen the negative results of a lot of fraud that has been perpetuated under the banner of "science". (E.g. "scientific socialism", the food pyramid, most of psychology, etc...)
    - chrisan 11y ago
jegutman 11y ago
For years the government has been encouraging _____ only for a news article never to be written because it dramatically helped the outcomes of real people. Don't forget that the things that make the news have a huge selection bias.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
ceejayoz 11y ago
> The most evident and dangerous venue for such engineering is the public schools, in which the government subjects our children to every sort of social experiment, and what have we to show for it? First two to spring to mind: A dramatic drop in violent crime since the 1970s because the "self-appointed masterminds" restricted lead. A dramatic drop in road deaths because the "self-appointed masterminds" required seatbelts, airbags, and crash standards.
- irixusr 11y ago
  Well the masterminds are still in the red, compared to the deaths from obesity (and drastic cut in quality of life).
- ashark 11y ago
  I think the key argument in favor of the usefulness of these sorts of policies is that if I had to worry about all this stuff myself it would take a ton of time and I'd almost certainly still do a worse job than government regulators. That regulators make mistakes, even fairly often, doesn't necessarily convince me my life would be better without them.
- clarkmoody 11y ago
  You'll need to be more specific as to the causes of the drop in violent crime in the '70s. Your example about automobile safety devices makes the dubious assumption that manufacturers wouldn't include such technologies if not mandated by the state and that consumers wouldn't demand them. You also ignore the ridiculous amount of other required features on modern automobiles that make base models more and more expensive, hurting the lowest income levels.
- smt88 11y ago
  > A dramatic drop in violent crime since the 1970s because the "self-appointed masterminds" restricted lead There are many possible factors that went into this reduction in crime, but it's not entirely settled. For example, a substantial portion is attributable to a decrease in unwanted pregnancies [1]. 1. http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUnderstandingWhyCrime2004.pdf http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUndersta...

amalag 11y ago

The US is somewhat unique in that there is a lot less tradition. Many "Old world" countries have millenia of established culture. How to live and eat healthy. Instead the US falls back to experimental science and corporations to define good health.

enlightenedfool 11y ago
I view the "established culture" you mention as science too..based on certain observations. It's not that all traditional methods are inferior or superior. We constantly re-evaluate as we evolve.
- irixusr 11y ago
  I've just become a father and my kid has very slight jaundice, not enough to have to do anything about it. But it did get me thinking, "how was jaundice dealt with before"? Considering 10% (??) of kids have bad jaundice that's a huge evolutionary pressure to either eliminate it (by favoring kids with larger livers) or somehow deal with it. Well my wife's (who's from a third-world and (formerly) most isolated country in the world) grandma (eldest of 13) explained it to me: She's always taken newborn's and placed them by the window for an hour. That'll do it! Then I read the history of neonatal jaundice care and I was shocked to learn that light therapy for jaundice wasn't discovered until the 50s (when a doctor noticed that newborns under the care of a nurse with particular habits fared better) and widely practiced until the 70s! +1 for folksy medicine!

enlightenedfool 11y ago

Well, I guess government follows the scientific conclusions and recommendations. Some might turn out to be wrong and we unlearn them. Science does make mistakes, but that's the best we've got. We can't leave it to intuitions of the masses.

bobcostas55 11y ago
>I guess government follows the scientific conclusions and recommendations. Come on now.
clarkmoody 11y ago
A naive view, at best. You're forgetting all about politics and special interests. > We can't leave it to intuitions of the masses. Precisely the mindset of the power elite that gets us into so much trouble.
- enlightenedfool 11y ago
  Well, take vaccinations for example. Would you better leave it to the people to decide? I'm sure half won't take them. EDIT: I do understand the corporate influence, but we could find a way to build unbiased scientific institutions if with collective global will.
  - lackbeard 11y ago
    Letting people choose to not vaccinate their children will self correct. We'll lose herd immunity, a lot of people will die, and then everyone will know how awesome vaccines are, just like they did in the 60s. Then the cycle will begin anew. I lean toward valuing individual rights over all else, but this scenario does present a serious challenge to that worldview. Another contributor to the problem is that people trust science a lot less today than 2 generations ago. They've seen the negative results of a lot of fraud that has been perpetuated under the banner of "science". (E.g. "scientific socialism", the food pyramid, most of psychology, etc...)
  - chrisan 11y ago

jegutman 11y ago

For years the government has been encouraging _____ only for a news article never to be written because it dramatically helped the outcomes of real people. Don't forget that the things that make the news have a huge selection bias.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

ceejayoz 11y ago

> The most evident and dangerous venue for such engineering is the public schools, in which the government subjects our children to every sort of social experiment, and what have we to show for it? First two to spring to mind: A dramatic drop in violent crime since the 1970s because the "self-appointed masterminds" restricted lead. A dramatic drop in road deaths because the "self-appointed masterminds" required seatbelts, airbags, and crash standards.

irixusr 11y ago
Well the masterminds are still in the red, compared to the deaths from obesity (and drastic cut in quality of life).
ashark 11y ago
I think the key argument in favor of the usefulness of these sorts of policies is that if I had to worry about all this stuff myself it would take a ton of time and I'd almost certainly still do a worse job than government regulators. That regulators make mistakes, even fairly often, doesn't necessarily convince me my life would be better without them.
clarkmoody 11y ago
You'll need to be more specific as to the causes of the drop in violent crime in the '70s. Your example about automobile safety devices makes the dubious assumption that manufacturers wouldn't include such technologies if not mandated by the state and that consumers wouldn't demand them. You also ignore the ridiculous amount of other required features on modern automobiles that make base models more and more expensive, hurting the lowest income levels.
smt88 11y ago
> A dramatic drop in violent crime since the 1970s because the "self-appointed masterminds" restricted lead There are many possible factors that went into this reduction in crime, but it's not entirely settled. For example, a substantial portion is attributable to a decrease in unwanted pregnancies [1]. 1. http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUnderstandingWhyCrime2004.pdf http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUndersta...