5 ms·

Right. It's fascinating how often I hear people saying that can learn by experience but wouldn't do a PhD. A PhD is a guaranteed salary for five years to do pr

by nmrm2 11y ago

Right. It's fascinating how often I hear people saying that can learn by experience but wouldn't do a PhD. A PhD is a guaranteed salary for five years to do pretty much whatever you want (plus a bit of politicking to explain to someone why what you're doing is related to an existing grant, which is way easier than it sounds). And bonus: you get to work on things that no one has ever done before, instead of just teaching yourself stuff everyone else already knows out of a book.

holdenk 11y ago
PhD stipends tend to be much lower than industry pay.
- nmrm2 11y ago
  Give me a call when you find a company that lets its employees work on whatever they want with minimal effort put into politicking/explanation. Plenty of excellent engineers take unpaid time off work between jobs for the opportunity to work on personal projects without interruption. Point is, 30-40k/yr ain't bad pay for that sort of freedom. EDIT: I've been in a PhD program. The reply to this comment DOES NOT describe a normal or healthy advisor/advisee relationship. Ultimately, there should be a point in every PhD where the student carves out a project and works on that project, and it should probably happen before the student is spending most of their time on research. The student shouldn't have to play politics to convince people to allow him/her to work on their own ideas, as long as those ideas have scientific value. If you find yourself consistently working 80 hour weeks and answering 2am emails, switch advisors or switch programs. If you're just working on your advisor's stuff without any autonomy and/or don't have any say in the direction of your or your lab's research, switch advisors or switch programs. A lot of the "bad press" PhD programs get aren't indicative of a healthy PhD and are not as common as they're made out to be. And never necessary. It's usually a combination of an abusive professor and a niave student. Which, BTW, happens in industry as well ("death marches" etc) A phd isn't a 40 hour work week kinda gig, but it also shouldn't be abusive. But in general, it's really simple: don't let people abuse you, and if you're taking a pay cut in return for freedom, be damn sure you demand the freedom.
  - harveywi 11y ago
    Have you actually been in a PhD program before? Calling it "freedom" could not be farther from the truth. You don't get to work on whatever you want unless you want to pay your own way. Stray a little bit out of your advisor's comfort zone and prepare to be put in your place. There will be plenty of interruptions, and you will spend countless hours digging holes and filling them back up as you carry out orders from emails that you get at 2am from your advisor. That salary is abysmal when you add up 80-hour weeks over 5+ years. Add in the risk of failing out of the program or quitting, and you would have to (in many cases) be a fool to take the deal. See here for a realistic picture of what it can be like to go through with a PhD in computer science: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8720640 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8720640
    - robotresearcher 11y ago
      You chose your advisor in the first place. That's the moment when you chose more or less what to work on. That freedom was total.
      - noobermin 11y ago
        And if there is no advisor there doing something you find interesting? Then you quit grad school, right. Since you are arguing total freedom in grad school, then the answer is that it isn't total.
        robotresearcher 11y ago
        Don't go somewhere that doesn't do what you want. I'm not arguing that there's total freedom to go to grad school and do what you want. I'm arguing that no one is forcing anyone to be in grad school doing something they don't want.
    - wsxcde 11y ago
      Not the OP, but I'm in a phd program right now and can see the light at the end of the tunnel. My experience has been great, my advisor has given me a lot of freedom to do the things I'm interested in. He has also taught me a lot ranging from technical stuff to big picture research issues to career advice. Obviously, our relationship has seen ups and downs, but show me a 4+ year relationship without ups and downs. I hear about people with dysfunctional phd experiences and one of my friends is experiencing one right now. To be honest, the students are to blame at least partly for this. IMO the people who get most exploited are those who are most desperate for a phd. Like someone said in the reply to the linked comment, you shouldn't tolerate abuse, you need to do your research before you sign on the dotted line and you should be prepared to walk away if things do go south. Sure, there are jerks in academia, but I've worked for a few different tech companies and there are plenty of jerks there too. We never think twice about getting out of a shitty job situation, but somehow people don't do the same in a phd program. I also don't know what people are talking when they mention 80 hour workweeks. I do something like 40-60 a week. Some weeks are closer to 30 than 40, and the 60 hour weeks are rare. The people who do 80 hour weeks don't seem to know when to stop working, and they don't seem to be able to accept that there are others who are way smarter than them and working harder isn't going to make up for that. I realized very quickly in my phd that there were people here who were in a different league from me in terms of ability. If I'd tried to compete with them, I would have lost both the rat race and my peace of mind, so I didn't. What I do know is that my work is interesting and important and clearly people appreciate it, I'm satisfied with that. I'm sure I could be winning more awards and publishing 4 papers a year instead of 2 if I worked 20 hours more every week, but really, I don't want to do that.
arjunnarayan 11y ago
You're missing the single best part of it: add on top of that mentorship from someone who's a world-class expert. My PhD advisor was probably the single best programmer I knew. He taught me things about the Linux kernel that I'm not sure I could have learned anywhere else. I'm sure plenty of programmers are kernel experts, but none of them have the time to sit down and do an all-nighter hackathon with me the way my advisor did.

by nmrm2 11y ago

holdenk 11y ago

PhD stipends tend to be much lower than industry pay.

nmrm2 11y ago
Give me a call when you find a company that lets its employees work on whatever they want with minimal effort put into politicking/explanation. Plenty of excellent engineers take unpaid time off work between jobs for the opportunity to work on personal projects without interruption. Point is, 30-40k/yr ain't bad pay for that sort of freedom. EDIT: I've been in a PhD program. The reply to this comment DOES NOT describe a normal or healthy advisor/advisee relationship. Ultimately, there should be a point in every PhD where the student carves out a project and works on that project, and it should probably happen before the student is spending most of their time on research. The student shouldn't have to play politics to convince people to allow him/her to work on their own ideas, as long as those ideas have scientific value. If you find yourself consistently working 80 hour weeks and answering 2am emails, switch advisors or switch programs. If you're just working on your advisor's stuff without any autonomy and/or don't have any say in the direction of your or your lab's research, switch advisors or switch programs. A lot of the "bad press" PhD programs get aren't indicative of a healthy PhD and are not as common as they're made out to be. And never necessary. It's usually a combination of an abusive professor and a niave student. Which, BTW, happens in industry as well ("death marches" etc) A phd isn't a 40 hour work week kinda gig, but it also shouldn't be abusive. But in general, it's really simple: don't let people abuse you, and if you're taking a pay cut in return for freedom, be damn sure you demand the freedom.
- harveywi 11y ago
  Have you actually been in a PhD program before? Calling it "freedom" could not be farther from the truth. You don't get to work on whatever you want unless you want to pay your own way. Stray a little bit out of your advisor's comfort zone and prepare to be put in your place. There will be plenty of interruptions, and you will spend countless hours digging holes and filling them back up as you carry out orders from emails that you get at 2am from your advisor. That salary is abysmal when you add up 80-hour weeks over 5+ years. Add in the risk of failing out of the program or quitting, and you would have to (in many cases) be a fool to take the deal. See here for a realistic picture of what it can be like to go through with a PhD in computer science: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8720640 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8720640
  - robotresearcher 11y ago
    You chose your advisor in the first place. That's the moment when you chose more or less what to work on. That freedom was total.
    - noobermin 11y ago
      And if there is no advisor there doing something you find interesting? Then you quit grad school, right. Since you are arguing total freedom in grad school, then the answer is that it isn't total.
      - robotresearcher 11y ago
        Don't go somewhere that doesn't do what you want. I'm not arguing that there's total freedom to go to grad school and do what you want. I'm arguing that no one is forcing anyone to be in grad school doing something they don't want.
  - wsxcde 11y ago
    Not the OP, but I'm in a phd program right now and can see the light at the end of the tunnel. My experience has been great, my advisor has given me a lot of freedom to do the things I'm interested in. He has also taught me a lot ranging from technical stuff to big picture research issues to career advice. Obviously, our relationship has seen ups and downs, but show me a 4+ year relationship without ups and downs. I hear about people with dysfunctional phd experiences and one of my friends is experiencing one right now. To be honest, the students are to blame at least partly for this. IMO the people who get most exploited are those who are most desperate for a phd. Like someone said in the reply to the linked comment, you shouldn't tolerate abuse, you need to do your research before you sign on the dotted line and you should be prepared to walk away if things do go south. Sure, there are jerks in academia, but I've worked for a few different tech companies and there are plenty of jerks there too. We never think twice about getting out of a shitty job situation, but somehow people don't do the same in a phd program. I also don't know what people are talking when they mention 80 hour workweeks. I do something like 40-60 a week. Some weeks are closer to 30 than 40, and the 60 hour weeks are rare. The people who do 80 hour weeks don't seem to know when to stop working, and they don't seem to be able to accept that there are others who are way smarter than them and working harder isn't going to make up for that. I realized very quickly in my phd that there were people here who were in a different league from me in terms of ability. If I'd tried to compete with them, I would have lost both the rat race and my peace of mind, so I didn't. What I do know is that my work is interesting and important and clearly people appreciate it, I'm satisfied with that. I'm sure I could be winning more awards and publishing 4 papers a year instead of 2 if I worked 20 hours more every week, but really, I don't want to do that.

arjunnarayan 11y ago

You're missing the single best part of it: add on top of that mentorship from someone who's a world-class expert. My PhD advisor was probably the single best programmer I knew. He taught me things about the Linux kernel that I'm not sure I could have learned anywhere else. I'm sure plenty of programmers are kernel experts, but none of them have the time to sit down and do an all-nighter hackathon with me the way my advisor did.