6 ms·

The frugal stuff is rubbish. He can be frugal because the main outgoing for any family is rent. He's taking in two rents. The rest is just a cheap show. The re

The frugal stuff is rubbish. He can be frugal because the main outgoing for any family is rent. He's taking in two rents. The rest is just a cheap show. The reason why we are all suffering is because of rentiers. It's not because we have slightly expensive data plans on our phone. Rentiers are using this to explain away the real problem. This guy is along for the ride for the web-clicks. Go on his site and ask a question that gives the info that he has two rental properties and see if he lets it through moderation. Be polite as you can. He won't. MMM knows where it's at.

whyleyc 11y ago
I'm not sure you can argue MMM is trying to hide his rental situation given that he has published numerous blog posts discussing it in depth starting in 2011: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/23/get-rich-with-owning-rental-houses/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/23/get-rich-with-owni... http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/06/29/good-times-for-landlords/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/06/29/good-times-for-lan...
- branchless 11y ago
  His whole message of frugality makes zero sense in the wider context of his behaviour. He's giving advice to everyone but if everyone behaved as he did the world would end because we can't have a world where every family derives a significant proportion of it's income from two other families for zero value added.
  - whyleyc 11y ago
    Of course you can't have a world where everyone becomes a landlord, but that doesn't mean this is a completely invalid form of income generation for some people (that's the benefit of being able to take a nuanced view of advice from others). It seems like you are being reductive and misleading in characterising his position - First you argue he won't dare talk about rental income, then when examples emerge of him doing so you say that he is exhorting everyone to do it! MMM talks at length about other sources of income generation too, but let's just ignore those: * Stocks: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/18/how-to-make-money-in-the-stock-market/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/18/how-to-make-money-... * Peer-to-peer lending: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/26/the-lending-club-experiment-at-one-year-the-gravy-train-grows-crowded/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/26/the-lending-club-e... * Carpentry: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/27/nicer-legs-and-some-new-carpentry-skills-for-only-15-bucks/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/27/nicer-legs-and-som... As for frugality this may not be a path to financial security for many but it sure is a refreshing departure from the "more, more, more" of modern life.
    - branchless 11y ago
      No the more, more, more is from the rentier. They set the rent not at the cost to deliver but at the cost the market will bear. Which is the money left over after food/fuel which puts everyone living hand to mouth with no money in their savings accounts. God he does p2p lending also. Yuk. However let's get this straight, there are plenty worse than him out there but I do hate to see his holier-than-tho "be frugal" when in fact he's a rentier who can be "frugal" because he's a rentier.
  - fancyketchup 11y ago
    And if everyone became doctors, who would you call to fix the toilet?
ghaff 11y ago
It's "renters" BTW. [EDIT: Scratch the previous. I am, of course, wrong about the renters correction. Misread.] I'm not sure what he did to get your back up so much or when being a landlord became such a terrible evil. Also, "we" are not suffering. Yes he has a schtick and probably a pretty profitable one. His general advice is probably good for some but mostly isn't my thing because I like restaurants and traveling and that sort of thing. And I certainly don't care enough to go to his site and ask questions.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  > when being a landlord became such a terrible evil. It's not being evil per se, but being an economic leech of sorts. The only reason people need to rent is because of the requirements to own (down payments, emergency funds to cover your mortgage in tough times so you don't lose your equity). Its an arbitrage between someone on financially sound footing versus someone not so. Disclaimer: My family has a landlord or two in it. I make my disdain for what they do known. If I had Facebook money, I'd create a B Corp to provide housing to people that gave them a non-transferable equity stake, co-op style. A small amount would be "off the top" for management of the organization and for upkeep of the properties. I would make the org fully transparent ("Buffer Style") and ruthlessly accountable.
  - fancyketchup 11y ago
    > The only reason people need to rent is because of the requirements to own (down payments, emergency funds to cover your mortgage in tough times so you don't lose your equity) So, in other words, the landlord is selling a service? In exchange for a monthly fee, you don't have to do any of the crap (down payments, mortgages, property taxes, maintenance) it takes to own a home? Do you view farmers the same way? If it weren't for the fact that you need to eat to survive, you wouldn't have to buy their product! And what do they do anyway? Just plant some seeds in the ground and wait for them to grow! Those damn leeches!
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      > Do you view farmers the same way? Providing food for free is next on my list. I don't need labor. I just need clean energy and automation.
kdamken 11y ago
Except that it's not rubbish. Most people do spend large amounts of their paycheck on things they don't need. Just because he makes good money doesn't mean his concepts of saving a large percentage of what you earn aren't sound. They apply to all income levels, even more so for the lower ones. Following his advice and sticking to a budget has gotten me from saving nothing every month to saving at least half of my take home on the same salary. Most people spend their money without thinking and then look for external sources to blame when they run out.
- branchless 11y ago
  He's not playing it straight. He's deriving income as a rentier but saying we can all live like him. We can't because rentier income by definition is income with zero value added. These guys hiding in the grey area are very damaging. Maybe you were a total fool with your money, but for most people they are on the breadline not because houses are expensive to construct, not because fuel is expensive but because they have to pay a significant portion of their labour to rentiers. People like this put the blame on the individual. No - it rests with the rentier.
  - Elepsis 11y ago
    You are starting from the inexplicable premise that these properties he rents out were somehow ill-gotten, and not the direct consequence of him saving significant amounts of his income while he worked a totally normal job and investing them intelligently in property. And of course landlords (since you're obviously using rentier as a pejorative) DO provide a valuable service: housing to people who either value the flexibility of renting or don't have the finances to buy housing where they live. Your apparent disagreement with the entire system of rental property around the world is certainly principled, but singling out Mr. Money Mustache as some kind of hypocrite for earning money off his investments is absurd on its face. Are you also opposed to people buying dividend-issuing stocks?
- lmm 11y ago
  > Most people do spend large amounts of their paycheck on things they don't need. Maybe. Or maybe they're spending their paycheck on things that they do need because they have to work for a living, they can't live by renting out their assets like MMM can. Example from the other branch: MMM can say "buy a bike instead of a new car" because he had the privilege of putting his "job" (rental properties) as close as he liked to his house. Most people don't have that option.
hugh4 11y ago
I don't see why it's an issue that he owns two rental properties. Of course he has investments of one kind or another, that's his shtick. Save money, but income-yielding investments, retire. Whether you buy properties or live off the dividends of your XOM shares (or more sensibly, do both) is immaterial. If your point is that it doesn't scale because its literally impossible for everyone to have two investment properties -- well, yeah. Frugality doesn't scale well. If everyone else stopped buying shit they don't need and working more than they needed to, production would go down and yields of all investments would suffer. So it's not actually a good idea to persuade everyone to quit buying shit they don't need, but it's advantageous for every individual to do so.

whyleyc 11y ago

I'm not sure you can argue MMM is trying to hide his rental situation given that he has published numerous blog posts discussing it in depth starting in 2011: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/23/get-rich-with-owning-rental-houses/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/23/get-rich-with-owni... http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/06/29/good-times-for-landlords/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/06/29/good-times-for-lan...

branchless 11y ago
His whole message of frugality makes zero sense in the wider context of his behaviour. He's giving advice to everyone but if everyone behaved as he did the world would end because we can't have a world where every family derives a significant proportion of it's income from two other families for zero value added.
- whyleyc 11y ago
  Of course you can't have a world where everyone becomes a landlord, but that doesn't mean this is a completely invalid form of income generation for some people (that's the benefit of being able to take a nuanced view of advice from others). It seems like you are being reductive and misleading in characterising his position - First you argue he won't dare talk about rental income, then when examples emerge of him doing so you say that he is exhorting everyone to do it! MMM talks at length about other sources of income generation too, but let's just ignore those: * Stocks: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/18/how-to-make-money-in-the-stock-market/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/18/how-to-make-money-... * Peer-to-peer lending: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/26/the-lending-club-experiment-at-one-year-the-gravy-train-grows-crowded/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/26/the-lending-club-e... * Carpentry: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/27/nicer-legs-and-some-new-carpentry-skills-for-only-15-bucks/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/27/nicer-legs-and-som... As for frugality this may not be a path to financial security for many but it sure is a refreshing departure from the "more, more, more" of modern life.
  - branchless 11y ago
    No the more, more, more is from the rentier. They set the rent not at the cost to deliver but at the cost the market will bear. Which is the money left over after food/fuel which puts everyone living hand to mouth with no money in their savings accounts. God he does p2p lending also. Yuk. However let's get this straight, there are plenty worse than him out there but I do hate to see his holier-than-tho "be frugal" when in fact he's a rentier who can be "frugal" because he's a rentier.
- fancyketchup 11y ago
  And if everyone became doctors, who would you call to fix the toilet?

ghaff 11y ago

It's "renters" BTW. [EDIT: Scratch the previous. I am, of course, wrong about the renters correction. Misread.] I'm not sure what he did to get your back up so much or when being a landlord became such a terrible evil. Also, "we" are not suffering. Yes he has a schtick and probably a pretty profitable one. His general advice is probably good for some but mostly isn't my thing because I like restaurants and traveling and that sort of thing. And I certainly don't care enough to go to his site and ask questions.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
> when being a landlord became such a terrible evil. It's not being evil per se, but being an economic leech of sorts. The only reason people need to rent is because of the requirements to own (down payments, emergency funds to cover your mortgage in tough times so you don't lose your equity). Its an arbitrage between someone on financially sound footing versus someone not so. Disclaimer: My family has a landlord or two in it. I make my disdain for what they do known. If I had Facebook money, I'd create a B Corp to provide housing to people that gave them a non-transferable equity stake, co-op style. A small amount would be "off the top" for management of the organization and for upkeep of the properties. I would make the org fully transparent ("Buffer Style") and ruthlessly accountable.
- fancyketchup 11y ago
  > The only reason people need to rent is because of the requirements to own (down payments, emergency funds to cover your mortgage in tough times so you don't lose your equity) So, in other words, the landlord is selling a service? In exchange for a monthly fee, you don't have to do any of the crap (down payments, mortgages, property taxes, maintenance) it takes to own a home? Do you view farmers the same way? If it weren't for the fact that you need to eat to survive, you wouldn't have to buy their product! And what do they do anyway? Just plant some seeds in the ground and wait for them to grow! Those damn leeches!
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    > Do you view farmers the same way? Providing food for free is next on my list. I don't need labor. I just need clean energy and automation.

kdamken 11y ago

Except that it's not rubbish. Most people do spend large amounts of their paycheck on things they don't need. Just because he makes good money doesn't mean his concepts of saving a large percentage of what you earn aren't sound. They apply to all income levels, even more so for the lower ones. Following his advice and sticking to a budget has gotten me from saving nothing every month to saving at least half of my take home on the same salary. Most people spend their money without thinking and then look for external sources to blame when they run out.

branchless 11y ago
He's not playing it straight. He's deriving income as a rentier but saying we can all live like him. We can't because rentier income by definition is income with zero value added. These guys hiding in the grey area are very damaging. Maybe you were a total fool with your money, but for most people they are on the breadline not because houses are expensive to construct, not because fuel is expensive but because they have to pay a significant portion of their labour to rentiers. People like this put the blame on the individual. No - it rests with the rentier.
- Elepsis 11y ago
  You are starting from the inexplicable premise that these properties he rents out were somehow ill-gotten, and not the direct consequence of him saving significant amounts of his income while he worked a totally normal job and investing them intelligently in property. And of course landlords (since you're obviously using rentier as a pejorative) DO provide a valuable service: housing to people who either value the flexibility of renting or don't have the finances to buy housing where they live. Your apparent disagreement with the entire system of rental property around the world is certainly principled, but singling out Mr. Money Mustache as some kind of hypocrite for earning money off his investments is absurd on its face. Are you also opposed to people buying dividend-issuing stocks?
lmm 11y ago
> Most people do spend large amounts of their paycheck on things they don't need. Maybe. Or maybe they're spending their paycheck on things that they do need because they have to work for a living, they can't live by renting out their assets like MMM can. Example from the other branch: MMM can say "buy a bike instead of a new car" because he had the privilege of putting his "job" (rental properties) as close as he liked to his house. Most people don't have that option.

hugh4 11y ago

I don't see why it's an issue that he owns two rental properties. Of course he has investments of one kind or another, that's his shtick. Save money, but income-yielding investments, retire. Whether you buy properties or live off the dividends of your XOM shares (or more sensibly, do both) is immaterial. If your point is that it doesn't scale because its literally impossible for everyone to have two investment properties -- well, yeah. Frugality doesn't scale well. If everyone else stopped buying shit they don't need and working more than they needed to, production would go down and yields of all investments would suffer. So it's not actually a good idea to persuade everyone to quit buying shit they don't need, but it's advantageous for every individual to do so.