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> Isn't one of the drivers of this something to do with it being a path to work in the US after they (non-resident) get a degree? This applies to undergraduate

> Isn't one of the drivers of this something to do with it being a path to work in the US after they (non-resident) get a degree? This applies to undergraduate degrees, too. Therefore the argument that restricts it to Ph.D degrees is moot. Furthermore, the 'path to work' is temporary. You still need a a work visa to work once your OPT has expired.

rajathagasthya 11y ago
Agreed, but it's a lot easier + quicker for PhDs to obtain permanent residency as opposed to non-residents having undergraduate or Master's degree.
- coherentpony 11y ago
  > Agreed, but it's a lot easier + quicker for PhDs to obtain permanent residency as opposed to non-residents having undergraduate or Master's degree. Perhaps. I think that's arguable, though. The only difference it might make is in the initial petition stage. The only situation in which I see holding a Ph.D makes any difference is if, for example, the applicant petitions for residency by claiming they are an "Alien with an extraordinary ability". This is rare enough that I feel it's probably no easier.
wtetzner 11y ago
>> Isn't one of the drivers of this something to do with it being a path to work in the US after they (non-resident) get a degree? >This applies to undergraduate degrees, too. Therefore the argument that restricts it to Ph.D degrees is moot. You seem to have ignored his second point. Yes, it applies to undergraduate degrees, but undergraduate degrees are attractive to residents as well. An undergraduate degree is helpful for getting a good job, whereas a Ph.D doesn't doesn't do much in that regard.
- coherentpony 11y ago
  > You seem to have ignored his second point. Yes, it applies to undergraduate degrees, but undergraduate degrees are attractive to residents as well. An undergraduate degree is helpful for getting a good job, whereas a Ph.D doesn't doesn't do much in that regard. That's a fair point but I'm not sure the conclusion is necessarily the right one. The US has some of the best universities in the world. It makes sense, if they're unattractive for residents in terms of job prospects, for most of the clientele to be foreign nationals. My point was that it's essentially no easier to get a job (not on OPT) in the US because you were a student in the us. H-1B applicants go through the same process either way, the only difference being that applicants on OPT are already in the country which, I reiterate, doesn't really make the H-1B application any easier.
holdenk 11y ago
I think that undergraduate degrees are generally viewed as the "next step" among many Americans and the ROI is generally viewed as a positive (regardless of it is or not). Also while you do need a work visa once your OPT has expired, PhDs can be used to get EB-2 or as part of EB-2 NIW or EB-1 applications which have much shorter waiting times than EB-3.
djb_hackernews 11y ago
Undergrad degrees aren't the same because the employers that (ab)use the H1B/OPT program only really want masters graduates because it avoids having to declare being an H1B dependent which comes at a cost employers don't want to bear. This is why you have universities like UT Dallas (not to single them out, this is the fact at nearly all universities I'm familiar with, it's just that UT Dallas are one of the few that publishes demographic data) with nearly 100% of its cs graduate students being foreign. It's a nice little system that works out for education institutions and employers but with definite costs to pretty much everyone else.
pessimizer 11y ago
I went to the University of Illinois at Chicago for undergraduate CS, and very few of my classmates grew up in the US. I might be recalling this badly, but I'd say the number was on the order of 10-15%. All of the native-born Americans seemed to be majoring in business and liberal arts. /anecdote We all thought of it as a typical working-class immigrant progression: the first generation goes to engineering school (while working full time), their kids become doctors and lawyers, and their kids become artists, poets, and slackers.
- cvwright 11y ago
  Reminds me of this quote from John Adams: > I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. > > Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain. ... edit: argh, formatting.

rajathagasthya 11y ago

Agreed, but it's a lot easier + quicker for PhDs to obtain permanent residency as opposed to non-residents having undergraduate or Master's degree.

coherentpony 11y ago
> Agreed, but it's a lot easier + quicker for PhDs to obtain permanent residency as opposed to non-residents having undergraduate or Master's degree. Perhaps. I think that's arguable, though. The only difference it might make is in the initial petition stage. The only situation in which I see holding a Ph.D makes any difference is if, for example, the applicant petitions for residency by claiming they are an "Alien with an extraordinary ability". This is rare enough that I feel it's probably no easier.

wtetzner 11y ago

>> Isn't one of the drivers of this something to do with it being a path to work in the US after they (non-resident) get a degree? >This applies to undergraduate degrees, too. Therefore the argument that restricts it to Ph.D degrees is moot. You seem to have ignored his second point. Yes, it applies to undergraduate degrees, but undergraduate degrees are attractive to residents as well. An undergraduate degree is helpful for getting a good job, whereas a Ph.D doesn't doesn't do much in that regard.

coherentpony 11y ago
> You seem to have ignored his second point. Yes, it applies to undergraduate degrees, but undergraduate degrees are attractive to residents as well. An undergraduate degree is helpful for getting a good job, whereas a Ph.D doesn't doesn't do much in that regard. That's a fair point but I'm not sure the conclusion is necessarily the right one. The US has some of the best universities in the world. It makes sense, if they're unattractive for residents in terms of job prospects, for most of the clientele to be foreign nationals. My point was that it's essentially no easier to get a job (not on OPT) in the US because you were a student in the us. H-1B applicants go through the same process either way, the only difference being that applicants on OPT are already in the country which, I reiterate, doesn't really make the H-1B application any easier.

holdenk 11y ago

I think that undergraduate degrees are generally viewed as the "next step" among many Americans and the ROI is generally viewed as a positive (regardless of it is or not). Also while you do need a work visa once your OPT has expired, PhDs can be used to get EB-2 or as part of EB-2 NIW or EB-1 applications which have much shorter waiting times than EB-3.

djb_hackernews 11y ago

Undergrad degrees aren't the same because the employers that (ab)use the H1B/OPT program only really want masters graduates because it avoids having to declare being an H1B dependent which comes at a cost employers don't want to bear. This is why you have universities like UT Dallas (not to single them out, this is the fact at nearly all universities I'm familiar with, it's just that UT Dallas are one of the few that publishes demographic data) with nearly 100% of its cs graduate students being foreign. It's a nice little system that works out for education institutions and employers but with definite costs to pretty much everyone else.

pessimizer 11y ago

I went to the University of Illinois at Chicago for undergraduate CS, and very few of my classmates grew up in the US. I might be recalling this badly, but I'd say the number was on the order of 10-15%. All of the native-born Americans seemed to be majoring in business and liberal arts. /anecdote We all thought of it as a typical working-class immigrant progression: the first generation goes to engineering school (while working full time), their kids become doctors and lawyers, and their kids become artists, poets, and slackers.

cvwright 11y ago
Reminds me of this quote from John Adams: > I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. > > Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain. ... edit: argh, formatting.