3 ms·

Let's relax a bit and cut the dramatics. I do it mostly, and not all that often, to increase the turnover rate on the front page. And when I say 'I do it mostl

by kyro 17y ago

Let's relax a bit and cut the dramatics. I do it mostly, and not all that often, to increase the turnover rate on the front page. And when I say 'I do it mostly', I mean upvote others' submissions without giving them a proper read. Stories sit there for days in a row with 100s of points and so many comments while others asking for help aren't given any attention. What I loved about HN was that I could visit it in the morning and read and engage in one set of submissions, then log in at night and jump into a completely different one. That's not the case now. I've been here 3 times longer than you have, although I haven't quite engaged as much, so to accuse me of trying to hijack the site for my own gratification is kind of offensive given how long I've stayed here, which should show how much I enjoy the community. I care about the quality here as much as you do.

jacquesm 17y ago
yes, let's relax a bit. A community that I care about seems to have a very undesirable element where people that pretend they are ordinary users collude in order to change the atmosphere from something good in to the exact opposite. Again, I can't help but notice that your comment has an upvote within a 10 second window from its submission. Tell me you didn't ask someone to vote you up? Are you capable at all of simple discourse without resorting to cheats?
- icey 17y ago
  Take it easy with the accusations. I voted his comment up when it was at 0 minutes. I wouldn't know kyro from Adam, I don't think I've ever had a conversation with him about anything, let alone some sort of voting cabal.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    Fair enough. I'm reasonably pissed of about this because I see HN as one of the better communities on the net and I'm really upset that there is a 'let's game the system, because we're doing it it must be ok' group active here. When I first saw this I thought it as incidental, but in fact it is a lot worse than that. If PG has the votes timestamped I'm pretty sure that there will be some interesting stuff found in there.
    - sophacles 17y ago
      I think it is worth noting that many people here are the type to game the system, not out of right, wrong, self interest or whatever, but because the CAN. There is a certain amount of "how does this work", "how can i make it do what i want" and whatnot inside of all of us on this site. I'll admit to doing experiments that lead to "how to game hn" type knowledge (see some of my other posts on this thread). There is also a natural law on the net -- as a site gains more importance, more people will try to game it. Its a sign of value. Eventually the gamers will gut it, and it will be time to move on. See slashdot and kuro5hin for notorious examples. A final thought: there is always some amount of backchannel going on -- e.g. YC founders hang together. It is futile (even silly) to suggest that we pretend there is no backchannel, or to act as if there are not things happening outside the site.
      - jacquesm 17y ago
        Excellent points, I think it is the second one you are making that I'm trying to avoid here. The gamers here seem to be more approachable than elsewhere so I figured maybe there is a chance to make some of them think twice about rigging the system in the future. Maybe the opposite, I don't know. Backchannels are fine as long as they're not abused, in this particular case I think the abuse is pretty obvious. If you'd use your 'backchannel' to simply sharpen your postings and to use that to increase the chance of being judeged on merit alone that would be excellent. But to simply use it as a megaphone so you can drown out others that play by the rules is completely out of bounds as far as I'm concerned.
        swombat 17y ago
        I think the reason you're hitting a lot of resistance here is that yes, there are backchannels, but no, your assumption of them being mostly abused is incorrect. Based on my observations over the last two years, the cases of abuse are very rare, usually dealt with very quickly, and are much less of a problem than the larger issues with HN, such as growing uncivility (which your rash accusations don't help) and the dilution of the site with politics/vague-economics articles.
        17y ago

by kyro 17y ago

jacquesm 17y ago

yes, let's relax a bit. A community that I care about seems to have a very undesirable element where people that pretend they are ordinary users collude in order to change the atmosphere from something good in to the exact opposite. Again, I can't help but notice that your comment has an upvote within a 10 second window from its submission. Tell me you didn't ask someone to vote you up? Are you capable at all of simple discourse without resorting to cheats?

icey 17y ago
Take it easy with the accusations. I voted his comment up when it was at 0 minutes. I wouldn't know kyro from Adam, I don't think I've ever had a conversation with him about anything, let alone some sort of voting cabal.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  Fair enough. I'm reasonably pissed of about this because I see HN as one of the better communities on the net and I'm really upset that there is a 'let's game the system, because we're doing it it must be ok' group active here. When I first saw this I thought it as incidental, but in fact it is a lot worse than that. If PG has the votes timestamped I'm pretty sure that there will be some interesting stuff found in there.
  - sophacles 17y ago
    I think it is worth noting that many people here are the type to game the system, not out of right, wrong, self interest or whatever, but because the CAN. There is a certain amount of "how does this work", "how can i make it do what i want" and whatnot inside of all of us on this site. I'll admit to doing experiments that lead to "how to game hn" type knowledge (see some of my other posts on this thread). There is also a natural law on the net -- as a site gains more importance, more people will try to game it. Its a sign of value. Eventually the gamers will gut it, and it will be time to move on. See slashdot and kuro5hin for notorious examples. A final thought: there is always some amount of backchannel going on -- e.g. YC founders hang together. It is futile (even silly) to suggest that we pretend there is no backchannel, or to act as if there are not things happening outside the site.
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      Excellent points, I think it is the second one you are making that I'm trying to avoid here. The gamers here seem to be more approachable than elsewhere so I figured maybe there is a chance to make some of them think twice about rigging the system in the future. Maybe the opposite, I don't know. Backchannels are fine as long as they're not abused, in this particular case I think the abuse is pretty obvious. If you'd use your 'backchannel' to simply sharpen your postings and to use that to increase the chance of being judeged on merit alone that would be excellent. But to simply use it as a megaphone so you can drown out others that play by the rules is completely out of bounds as far as I'm concerned.
      - swombat 17y ago
        I think the reason you're hitting a lot of resistance here is that yes, there are backchannels, but no, your assumption of them being mostly abused is incorrect. Based on my observations over the last two years, the cases of abuse are very rare, usually dealt with very quickly, and are much less of a problem than the larger issues with HN, such as growing uncivility (which your rash accusations don't help) and the dilution of the site with politics/vague-economics articles.
      - 17y ago