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Yes and no. Yes in that submissions do not rise solely based on their quality and merits. But no in that I have seen many many submissions, specifically Ask HNs

by kyro 17y ago

Yes and no. Yes in that submissions do not rise solely based on their quality and merits. But no in that I have seen many many submissions, specifically Ask HNs, fall right through the 'new' page without an upvote. So I'll upvote them after reading the title, and not clicking through. If it's something I can help them out with, then I'll click through; if not, I upvote in hopes of someone else answering. I'll admit, I've asked many times for an Ask HN of mine to be upvoted because it seems that only when it hits the front page do people come of out of the woodwork. For some reason, many more submissions are slipping through the cracks. I don't know if it's the algorithm that needs to be tweaked again or what. Stories will skyrocket to 150+ points while others are left unnoticed. I'm getting sick of seeing the same story on the front page for 2 consecutive days while Ask HNs and other interesting submissions are falling through on an hourly basis. That's why I'm ok with asking friends for upvotes.

jacquesm 17y ago
So, you and your friends are free to make your own site then, where you play according to your own ruleset. Where bringing your friends along to rig the vote is an accepted part of the game. But to use some backchannel to manipulate HN in order to have a louder voice than those that refuse to cheat is really beyond the pale. If you think that there is stuff that ought to change you can petition PG about it and maybe he'll listen to you, maybe he won't, it is his site after all. Essentially you and your buddies are hijacking the site for your own gratification. How many times do you do this? Do you really think that because the end justifies the means it is ok to cheat?
- kyro 17y ago
  Let's relax a bit and cut the dramatics. I do it mostly, and not all that often, to increase the turnover rate on the front page. And when I say 'I do it mostly', I mean upvote others' submissions without giving them a proper read. Stories sit there for days in a row with 100s of points and so many comments while others asking for help aren't given any attention. What I loved about HN was that I could visit it in the morning and read and engage in one set of submissions, then log in at night and jump into a completely different one. That's not the case now. I've been here 3 times longer than you have, although I haven't quite engaged as much, so to accuse me of trying to hijack the site for my own gratification is kind of offensive given how long I've stayed here, which should show how much I enjoy the community. I care about the quality here as much as you do.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    yes, let's relax a bit. A community that I care about seems to have a very undesirable element where people that pretend they are ordinary users collude in order to change the atmosphere from something good in to the exact opposite. Again, I can't help but notice that your comment has an upvote within a 10 second window from its submission. Tell me you didn't ask someone to vote you up? Are you capable at all of simple discourse without resorting to cheats?
    - icey 17y ago
      Take it easy with the accusations. I voted his comment up when it was at 0 minutes. I wouldn't know kyro from Adam, I don't think I've ever had a conversation with him about anything, let alone some sort of voting cabal.
      - jacquesm 17y ago
        Fair enough. I'm reasonably pissed of about this because I see HN as one of the better communities on the net and I'm really upset that there is a 'let's game the system, because we're doing it it must be ok' group active here. When I first saw this I thought it as incidental, but in fact it is a lot worse than that. If PG has the votes timestamped I'm pretty sure that there will be some interesting stuff found in there.
        sophacles 17y ago
        I think it is worth noting that many people here are the type to game the system, not out of right, wrong, self interest or whatever, but because the CAN. There is a certain amount of "how does this work", "how can i make it do what i want" and whatnot inside of all of us on this site. I'll admit to doing experiments that lead to "how to game hn" type knowledge (see some of my other posts on this thread). There is also a natural law on the net -- as a site gains more importance, more people will try to game it. Its a sign of value. Eventually the gamers will gut it, and it will be time to move on. See slashdot and kuro5hin for notorious examples. A final thought: there is always some amount of backchannel going on -- e.g. YC founders hang together. It is futile (even silly) to suggest that we pretend there is no backchannel, or to act as if there are not things happening outside the site.

by kyro 17y ago

jacquesm 17y ago

So, you and your friends are free to make your own site then, where you play according to your own ruleset. Where bringing your friends along to rig the vote is an accepted part of the game. But to use some backchannel to manipulate HN in order to have a louder voice than those that refuse to cheat is really beyond the pale. If you think that there is stuff that ought to change you can petition PG about it and maybe he'll listen to you, maybe he won't, it is his site after all. Essentially you and your buddies are hijacking the site for your own gratification. How many times do you do this? Do you really think that because the end justifies the means it is ok to cheat?

kyro 17y ago
Let's relax a bit and cut the dramatics. I do it mostly, and not all that often, to increase the turnover rate on the front page. And when I say 'I do it mostly', I mean upvote others' submissions without giving them a proper read. Stories sit there for days in a row with 100s of points and so many comments while others asking for help aren't given any attention. What I loved about HN was that I could visit it in the morning and read and engage in one set of submissions, then log in at night and jump into a completely different one. That's not the case now. I've been here 3 times longer than you have, although I haven't quite engaged as much, so to accuse me of trying to hijack the site for my own gratification is kind of offensive given how long I've stayed here, which should show how much I enjoy the community. I care about the quality here as much as you do.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  yes, let's relax a bit. A community that I care about seems to have a very undesirable element where people that pretend they are ordinary users collude in order to change the atmosphere from something good in to the exact opposite. Again, I can't help but notice that your comment has an upvote within a 10 second window from its submission. Tell me you didn't ask someone to vote you up? Are you capable at all of simple discourse without resorting to cheats?
  - icey 17y ago
    Take it easy with the accusations. I voted his comment up when it was at 0 minutes. I wouldn't know kyro from Adam, I don't think I've ever had a conversation with him about anything, let alone some sort of voting cabal.
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      Fair enough. I'm reasonably pissed of about this because I see HN as one of the better communities on the net and I'm really upset that there is a 'let's game the system, because we're doing it it must be ok' group active here. When I first saw this I thought it as incidental, but in fact it is a lot worse than that. If PG has the votes timestamped I'm pretty sure that there will be some interesting stuff found in there.
      - sophacles 17y ago
        I think it is worth noting that many people here are the type to game the system, not out of right, wrong, self interest or whatever, but because the CAN. There is a certain amount of "how does this work", "how can i make it do what i want" and whatnot inside of all of us on this site. I'll admit to doing experiments that lead to "how to game hn" type knowledge (see some of my other posts on this thread). There is also a natural law on the net -- as a site gains more importance, more people will try to game it. Its a sign of value. Eventually the gamers will gut it, and it will be time to move on. See slashdot and kuro5hin for notorious examples. A final thought: there is always some amount of backchannel going on -- e.g. YC founders hang together. It is futile (even silly) to suggest that we pretend there is no backchannel, or to act as if there are not things happening outside the site.