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Yes, exactly. The numbers I would like to see measured would be: - percent of people who can afford 2,500 calories of food and 60 grams of animal protein a day

Yes, exactly. The numbers I would like to see measured would be: - percent of people who can afford 2,500 calories of food and 60 grams of animal protein a day (where afford has some standard definition, such as can pay for the consumption using less than half of their income). - percent of people who have access to clean water - percent of people with indoor plumbing - percent of people with access to electricity in the home. - percent of people who can access and afford 500MB of internet data a month It is impossible to know what "$2 a day" actually means. The number gets adjusted for purchasing power, but there is an infinite amount of room in that calculation for governments to fudge the data. Many people in the third world can afford a cell phone, but not afford enough protein in their diet, does that mean they are richer or poorer than someone one hundred years ago without a cell phone but who can afford meat? There is no objective way to answer that question. Since I do not know all the subjective decisions made in doing the purchasing power adjustment, the ultimate number tells me nothing.

GordonS 11y ago
Why specifically animal protein and not just protein? (I'm not a vegetarian or anything like that, it's a serious question)
- sliverstorm 11y ago
  Animal protein is generally both more desirable and more expensive. Generally animal protein is a complete protein source, whereas most plants are not.
- devinhelton 11y ago
  Well, ideally we could measure and track the stats for both. Animal protein is generally a more complete protein. If we tracked just "protein" do we count incomplete proteins? Do we count textured vegetable protein?
GordonS 11y ago
> percent of people who can access and afford 500MB of internet data a month I don't think I'd include Internet access in any definition of 'extreme poverty'.
- CoryG89 11y ago
  You're right here. I don't think I'd use it for extreme poverty. I might use it as a way to measure 'the poor' though. Although, the relative adjusted cost of 500MB of internet data is going to vary greatly depending on the networking infrastructure of their country. It may not accurately describe the wealth of the people.
swampthinker 11y ago
Honestly, I would take out the internet requirement. All the others can significantly improve quality of life in a home, but I can't truely say the same about internet access. I'd love to hear the counterpoints, but I just can't imagine a farmer needing internet access to live a comfortable lifestyle, as opposed to clean water and electricity, which is necessary.
- GordonS 11y ago
  Internet access could certainly help, for example, a farmer, as it could give access to information on better farming techniques, where to source better value fertilisers, where to get the best price for produce etc. But I certainly agree that it doesn't play any part in the definition of 'extreme poverty'.
  - phil21 11y ago
    I was going to make a similar comment, but this boils down to information asymmetry. For how cheap it is to deliver reasonable Internet access to everyone, I put it up there with the same importance as most utilities. If you're building out electricity to a farmer, you can certainly add Internet infrastructure onto that for very little relative cost. Why should giant corporations buying the farmers products have access to nearly limitless amounts of information, while the farmer is relegated to maybe an industry periodical and the local cafe gossip. That worked before the 1900's, but these days information moves too quickly. So yes, I think Internet is probably not quite yet essentially a basic need to participate in the economy and society - but it's pretty damn close. And it's only going to continue to get more important as "old world" services are turned off in favor of those on-line. In my lifetime I will see the DMV close it's last in-person renewal desk. And the private world is already there in requiring online-only transactions to do certain forms of business.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- devinhelton 11y ago
  I was going beyond measuring just "extreme poverty" to measuring general economic development. In the modern world, internet is really important because you can need it to do business, order products, look up information, get reading material, get educated, etc, etc. Many developing countries never had public libraries, or homes filled with books, so the internet is way of granting access to essential information in a digital form.
xacaxulu 11y ago
Mostly agree, but I would argue that requiring animal protein could be optional, especially with the follow-on climactic effects that raising so much animal meat causes. There are a number of cultures and sub-groups that are perfectly healthy without animal protein.
sanxiyn 11y ago
> percent of people who have access to clean water This number is actually measured, because it is target 7.C of MDG(Millennium Development Goals). Lots of data at http://mdgs.un.org/ http://mdgs.un.org/. Summary is that we are doing very well on this number. In 1990 it was 76%, now it is 91%. In the absolute number, 2.6 billion people gained access to clean water in the period.

GordonS 11y ago

Why specifically animal protein and not just protein? (I'm not a vegetarian or anything like that, it's a serious question)

sliverstorm 11y ago
Animal protein is generally both more desirable and more expensive. Generally animal protein is a complete protein source, whereas most plants are not.
devinhelton 11y ago
Well, ideally we could measure and track the stats for both. Animal protein is generally a more complete protein. If we tracked just "protein" do we count incomplete proteins? Do we count textured vegetable protein?

GordonS 11y ago

> percent of people who can access and afford 500MB of internet data a month I don't think I'd include Internet access in any definition of 'extreme poverty'.

CoryG89 11y ago
You're right here. I don't think I'd use it for extreme poverty. I might use it as a way to measure 'the poor' though. Although, the relative adjusted cost of 500MB of internet data is going to vary greatly depending on the networking infrastructure of their country. It may not accurately describe the wealth of the people.

swampthinker 11y ago

Honestly, I would take out the internet requirement. All the others can significantly improve quality of life in a home, but I can't truely say the same about internet access. I'd love to hear the counterpoints, but I just can't imagine a farmer needing internet access to live a comfortable lifestyle, as opposed to clean water and electricity, which is necessary.

GordonS 11y ago
Internet access could certainly help, for example, a farmer, as it could give access to information on better farming techniques, where to source better value fertilisers, where to get the best price for produce etc. But I certainly agree that it doesn't play any part in the definition of 'extreme poverty'.
- phil21 11y ago
  I was going to make a similar comment, but this boils down to information asymmetry. For how cheap it is to deliver reasonable Internet access to everyone, I put it up there with the same importance as most utilities. If you're building out electricity to a farmer, you can certainly add Internet infrastructure onto that for very little relative cost. Why should giant corporations buying the farmers products have access to nearly limitless amounts of information, while the farmer is relegated to maybe an industry periodical and the local cafe gossip. That worked before the 1900's, but these days information moves too quickly. So yes, I think Internet is probably not quite yet essentially a basic need to participate in the economy and society - but it's pretty damn close. And it's only going to continue to get more important as "old world" services are turned off in favor of those on-line. In my lifetime I will see the DMV close it's last in-person renewal desk. And the private world is already there in requiring online-only transactions to do certain forms of business.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
devinhelton 11y ago
I was going beyond measuring just "extreme poverty" to measuring general economic development. In the modern world, internet is really important because you can need it to do business, order products, look up information, get reading material, get educated, etc, etc. Many developing countries never had public libraries, or homes filled with books, so the internet is way of granting access to essential information in a digital form.

xacaxulu 11y ago

Mostly agree, but I would argue that requiring animal protein could be optional, especially with the follow-on climactic effects that raising so much animal meat causes. There are a number of cultures and sub-groups that are perfectly healthy without animal protein.

sanxiyn 11y ago

> percent of people who have access to clean water This number is actually measured, because it is target 7.C of MDG(Millennium Development Goals). Lots of data at http://mdgs.un.org/ http://mdgs.un.org/. Summary is that we are doing very well on this number. In 1990 it was 76%, now it is 91%. In the absolute number, 2.6 billion people gained access to clean water in the period.