4 ms·

Godwin's Law warning I find more ridiculous the statement "we will never forgive Microsoft" than saying "we will never forgive Germany". They're a company, no

by Aldo_MX 11y ago

Godwin's Law warning I find more ridiculous the statement "we will never forgive Microsoft" than saying "we will never forgive Germany". They're a company, not a charity, they're in the business of making money, and if making money implies using "dirty tactics" such as saying phone manufacturers "bundle Office in your phones or we will use our patents against you" it will certainly happen regardless of which company we're talking about. Also, you should not be angered at Microsoft for collaborating with the NSA, but be angered at America for forcing companies to collaborate with the NSA. If you were in the position of Microsoft would you reject and risk loosing your company? Don't be ridiculous! If Apple is playing to be the victim right now, is because it's more profitable for them after the public outrage that followed Snowden's revelations. There is a real world outside the Free Software bubble, a real world where companies struggle to survive and any means to survive, even at the expense of the competition, will certainly happen.

3pt14159 11y ago
Part of their survival is depending on consumer perception of their brand. Microsoft sold us out to the NSA for a big fat cheque. Apple and Google have been fighting doing so every step of the way. Companies that act like uncompetitive dicks should be shunned and regulated, especially when they do things like abuse the patent system. There is a real world outside of the Realism bubble. A real world where people struggle for justice, and justice, even at the expense of wasting time talking on the internet, will certainly happen.
- Aldo_MX 11y ago
  Do you understand the concept of "national security"? If you were to invent, for example, teleporting, and you rejected selling your invention to the government, the most likely outcome would be that the government would confiscate your invention and recruit you against your will under threats of being jailed for risking "national security". There is no such thing as justice other than "abide by the law". Fine print: laws are subject to change, sometimes with good results by the perception of the majority of people, sometimes not.
  - 3pt14159 11y ago
    There are things inside the realism bubble too. Like nukes and teleportation devices.
exelius 11y ago
People like to anthropomorphize companies as having a conscience, but you're right: they're just autonomous control structures with the goal of making as much money as possible. Sometimes their leaders will make bad decisions prioritizing money now over money later, but ultimately such decisions are often just as bad for the long-term health of the company as they are for the market (even though they may provide a short-term benefit). And for everyone who says Microsoft should have told the NSA to shove it, just consider how quickly a major CEO can be taken down by the government: Jeff Smisek, widely considered one of the two most powerful men in the airline industry, was forced out of his position as CEO of United Airlines as part of a government corruption scandal with no more fanfare than a tersely worded press release. He has yet to be charged with anything, but criminal charges are inevitably coming. Any company that does business with the US government (as Microsoft does) is likely participating in some form of corruption or another. All they have to do is investigate that corruption and long jail sentences for senior executives will follow. It's essentially the NSA's version of "plata o plombo".
- hga 11y ago
  You're forgetting the direct example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio He was convicted of 19 counts of insider trading in Qwest stock on April 19, 2007 – charges he and many others claim are U.S. government retaliation for his refusal to give customer data to the National Security Agency in February, 2001. Given the iffiness of such charges when it's your own company's stock, we have to at least entertain the proposition that refusing to work with the NSA is a ticket to Federal prison. Qwest is said to have been the only big company that refused.
  - exelius 11y ago
    Yeah; I remember that one too. The Smisek one was just more recent, and Smisek was also a much more visible CEO than Nacchio given United's place in the airline industry. From what I can tell, the Smisek issue may have genuinely involved some wrongdoing, but Smisek may only be involved because the ultimate target is Chris Christie. But he was a titan of his industry, and when he left there was no retirement party or farewell video: just a new guy sitting in his chair and a short press release explaining that a change had been made. Nobody is immune. But yeah, that's the jist of it. Refusing to comply with an NSA order will likely just end you up in jail on something else because the government has the power to lock you up. So we can't hold the companies who complied with them entirely responsible, as those companies are made up of individuals who have families to think of.

by Aldo_MX 11y ago

3pt14159 11y ago

Part of their survival is depending on consumer perception of their brand. Microsoft sold us out to the NSA for a big fat cheque. Apple and Google have been fighting doing so every step of the way. Companies that act like uncompetitive dicks should be shunned and regulated, especially when they do things like abuse the patent system. There is a real world outside of the Realism bubble. A real world where people struggle for justice, and justice, even at the expense of wasting time talking on the internet, will certainly happen.

Aldo_MX 11y ago
Do you understand the concept of "national security"? If you were to invent, for example, teleporting, and you rejected selling your invention to the government, the most likely outcome would be that the government would confiscate your invention and recruit you against your will under threats of being jailed for risking "national security". There is no such thing as justice other than "abide by the law". Fine print: laws are subject to change, sometimes with good results by the perception of the majority of people, sometimes not.
- 3pt14159 11y ago
  There are things inside the realism bubble too. Like nukes and teleportation devices.

exelius 11y ago

People like to anthropomorphize companies as having a conscience, but you're right: they're just autonomous control structures with the goal of making as much money as possible. Sometimes their leaders will make bad decisions prioritizing money now over money later, but ultimately such decisions are often just as bad for the long-term health of the company as they are for the market (even though they may provide a short-term benefit). And for everyone who says Microsoft should have told the NSA to shove it, just consider how quickly a major CEO can be taken down by the government: Jeff Smisek, widely considered one of the two most powerful men in the airline industry, was forced out of his position as CEO of United Airlines as part of a government corruption scandal with no more fanfare than a tersely worded press release. He has yet to be charged with anything, but criminal charges are inevitably coming. Any company that does business with the US government (as Microsoft does) is likely participating in some form of corruption or another. All they have to do is investigate that corruption and long jail sentences for senior executives will follow. It's essentially the NSA's version of "plata o plombo".

hga 11y ago
You're forgetting the direct example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio He was convicted of 19 counts of insider trading in Qwest stock on April 19, 2007 – charges he and many others claim are U.S. government retaliation for his refusal to give customer data to the National Security Agency in February, 2001. Given the iffiness of such charges when it's your own company's stock, we have to at least entertain the proposition that refusing to work with the NSA is a ticket to Federal prison. Qwest is said to have been the only big company that refused.
- exelius 11y ago
  Yeah; I remember that one too. The Smisek one was just more recent, and Smisek was also a much more visible CEO than Nacchio given United's place in the airline industry. From what I can tell, the Smisek issue may have genuinely involved some wrongdoing, but Smisek may only be involved because the ultimate target is Chris Christie. But he was a titan of his industry, and when he left there was no retirement party or farewell video: just a new guy sitting in his chair and a short press release explaining that a change had been made. Nobody is immune. But yeah, that's the jist of it. Refusing to comply with an NSA order will likely just end you up in jail on something else because the government has the power to lock you up. So we can't hold the companies who complied with them entirely responsible, as those companies are made up of individuals who have families to think of.