3 ms·

You work for a bank and you have the keys to the vault. You quit. The bank doesn't immediately change the locks to ensure that their security isn't compromise

You work for a bank and you have the keys to the vault. You quit. The bank doesn't immediately change the locks to ensure that their security isn't compromised. What happens to the keys after that is in my made up example doesn't matter. The bank is at fault because the bank has a responsibility to ensure the security of their operation, irrespective of how ethically or unethically their former employee acts from that point onwards. A newspaper is an information bank especially in the Internet age. EDIT: I should have specified "the bank is at fault for the total amount of damage" not that the bank is at fault full stop.

forgetsusername 11y ago
>The bank is at fault because the bank has a responsibility to ensure the security of their operation Yes, and in the case of the Tribune company here, it cost them tens of thousands of dollars to "repair" the breach. That's the punishment for their failing of responsibility. It's not like they are suing to recover that money. But I'm not sure how that absolves the actual criminal here.
- baldfat 11y ago
  > it cost them tens of thousands of dollars to "repair" the breach No they claimed just shy of a million dollars.
  - nmrm2 11y ago
    Right. I think the reasonable complaint in these cases is that the damages should cover the cost of investigation that resulted directly from the breach, not the cost of fixing the original security vulnerability and/or auditing the entire system. If you break into a bank, then the bank is right to ask for damages of amount stolen + amount necessary to sweep their building for any backdoors you might've added and repair any damage. That's fair. They shouldn't be suing for the cost of an upgrade to their security system or a new training course for their security officers.
- msandford 11y ago
  Oh, you're right, it doesn't. I guess what I'm saying is that if your job is security and you fail at security and because of your failure at security a former employee is able to do some damage he or she if of course guilty of whatever crime. But the amount of money that you spent to clean up the mess because you failed at your job initially, that doesn't matter and shouldn't influence the trial. The crime is a crime no matter how large or small the damage.
  - tedunangst 11y ago
    Consider a warehouse guarded by a night watchman, but sometimes he takes a smoke break (hence, failing to do his job). Some vandal comes by and tags the building with graffiti. Later, some other vandal comes by and burns the place to the ground. You think both vandals deserve equal treatment?
    - msandford 11y ago
      One is vandalism, the other is arson, destruction of property, and probably a bunch of additional crimes. They should be handled differently because they're different crimes. The point is that two people who vandalize should be treated equally even if one vandalizes a poor person's house and the other vandalizes a rich person's house. The exact dollar amount of the vandalism shouldn't matter because either way we've all agreed by way of the law that vandalism is wrong.
      - tedunangst 11y ago
        Distinguishing between destruction of property and vandalism seems like implicit validation of the idea that some vandalism is worse than others.
        msandford 11y ago
        Yes of course, and within vandalism there probably are different fines or sentences depending on just how much property you damage. But if you're going to label "anything where some property is damaged" as vandalism then 9/11 was vandalism, right? You also neglected to address arson and the idea that a whole building burned down. I don't think any part of the justice system would seriously suggest that destroying a building and spray painting a building are the same. I don't think they'd be investigated the same, charged the same, etc. The problem here is that the CFAA has definitions and those definitions are what determine what the crime is. So yes someone breaking into your Facebook account and posting a "turns out I'm gay everyone!" comment is -- again according to a strict reading of the law -- just as bad as someone breaking into VISA and forcing them to re-issue all the credit cards in the country. That's because the law doesn't distinguish damages or anything like that. In part that's because in reality you don't do any actual damage, you just cause people to have to take action to mitigate that your specific knowledge causes problems with their security. This makes sense too, if you break into a bank it might be reasonable to attempt to force you to pay for the repairs to the vault door, but it would not be reasonable to force you to compensate the bank's shareholders for the loss of goodwill (and share price!) they suffer because the bank's security wasn't able to keep you out.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- tedunangst 11y ago
  I think it's fair if a vandal uses a copied key to enter the office and pee on the rug, then the company should cover the costs of changing the locks, but the vandal is responsible for the damage to the rug. Changing the locks is a direct consequence of the company's failure to collect the keys (and needs to be done regardless of what if any vandalism has taken place), but the follow on damage was not caused by mere negligence or happenstance.
logfromblammo 11y ago
The bank is at fault for the amount of damage due to their own negligence, which would be the amount greater than what it would have cost to re-key the locks. And you have to re-key the locks instead of recovering the keys that had been issued, because you have no way of knowing whether the keys were copied or not. In the case of username/password keys, "changing the locks" can be done as easily as running an automated script nightly against the HR employee database, to suspend login privileges from anyone who is on leave or no longer an employee, or at worst, by having your sysadmin's lackey, who makes $30/hour, spend 2 minutes on doing that every time it is needed. The people who broke in are responsible only for the damages they caused directly, not for the cost of fixing things that were already broken when they showed up, or for investigating and implementing measures to stop the next gang of vandals that might enter. So what is the actual financial impact of a defaced web page? How do you prove that? If you give crowbars and sledgehammers to a gang of vandals, to what extent are you responsible for the damage they cause with them? If they only use those tools for legit demolition work, are they obligated to pay you a cut of their revenue?

forgetsusername 11y ago

>The bank is at fault because the bank has a responsibility to ensure the security of their operation Yes, and in the case of the Tribune company here, it cost them tens of thousands of dollars to "repair" the breach. That's the punishment for their failing of responsibility. It's not like they are suing to recover that money. But I'm not sure how that absolves the actual criminal here.

baldfat 11y ago
> it cost them tens of thousands of dollars to "repair" the breach No they claimed just shy of a million dollars.
- nmrm2 11y ago
  Right. I think the reasonable complaint in these cases is that the damages should cover the cost of investigation that resulted directly from the breach, not the cost of fixing the original security vulnerability and/or auditing the entire system. If you break into a bank, then the bank is right to ask for damages of amount stolen + amount necessary to sweep their building for any backdoors you might've added and repair any damage. That's fair. They shouldn't be suing for the cost of an upgrade to their security system or a new training course for their security officers.
msandford 11y ago
Oh, you're right, it doesn't. I guess what I'm saying is that if your job is security and you fail at security and because of your failure at security a former employee is able to do some damage he or she if of course guilty of whatever crime. But the amount of money that you spent to clean up the mess because you failed at your job initially, that doesn't matter and shouldn't influence the trial. The crime is a crime no matter how large or small the damage.
- tedunangst 11y ago
  Consider a warehouse guarded by a night watchman, but sometimes he takes a smoke break (hence, failing to do his job). Some vandal comes by and tags the building with graffiti. Later, some other vandal comes by and burns the place to the ground. You think both vandals deserve equal treatment?
  - msandford 11y ago
    One is vandalism, the other is arson, destruction of property, and probably a bunch of additional crimes. They should be handled differently because they're different crimes. The point is that two people who vandalize should be treated equally even if one vandalizes a poor person's house and the other vandalizes a rich person's house. The exact dollar amount of the vandalism shouldn't matter because either way we've all agreed by way of the law that vandalism is wrong.
    - tedunangst 11y ago
      Distinguishing between destruction of property and vandalism seems like implicit validation of the idea that some vandalism is worse than others.
      - msandford 11y ago
        Yes of course, and within vandalism there probably are different fines or sentences depending on just how much property you damage. But if you're going to label "anything where some property is damaged" as vandalism then 9/11 was vandalism, right? You also neglected to address arson and the idea that a whole building burned down. I don't think any part of the justice system would seriously suggest that destroying a building and spray painting a building are the same. I don't think they'd be investigated the same, charged the same, etc. The problem here is that the CFAA has definitions and those definitions are what determine what the crime is. So yes someone breaking into your Facebook account and posting a "turns out I'm gay everyone!" comment is -- again according to a strict reading of the law -- just as bad as someone breaking into VISA and forcing them to re-issue all the credit cards in the country. That's because the law doesn't distinguish damages or anything like that. In part that's because in reality you don't do any actual damage, you just cause people to have to take action to mitigate that your specific knowledge causes problems with their security. This makes sense too, if you break into a bank it might be reasonable to attempt to force you to pay for the repairs to the vault door, but it would not be reasonable to force you to compensate the bank's shareholders for the loss of goodwill (and share price!) they suffer because the bank's security wasn't able to keep you out.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
tedunangst 11y ago
I think it's fair if a vandal uses a copied key to enter the office and pee on the rug, then the company should cover the costs of changing the locks, but the vandal is responsible for the damage to the rug. Changing the locks is a direct consequence of the company's failure to collect the keys (and needs to be done regardless of what if any vandalism has taken place), but the follow on damage was not caused by mere negligence or happenstance.

logfromblammo 11y ago

The bank is at fault for the amount of damage due to their own negligence, which would be the amount greater than what it would have cost to re-key the locks. And you have to re-key the locks instead of recovering the keys that had been issued, because you have no way of knowing whether the keys were copied or not. In the case of username/password keys, "changing the locks" can be done as easily as running an automated script nightly against the HR employee database, to suspend login privileges from anyone who is on leave or no longer an employee, or at worst, by having your sysadmin's lackey, who makes $30/hour, spend 2 minutes on doing that every time it is needed. The people who broke in are responsible only for the damages they caused directly, not for the cost of fixing things that were already broken when they showed up, or for investigating and implementing measures to stop the next gang of vandals that might enter. So what is the actual financial impact of a defaced web page? How do you prove that? If you give crowbars and sledgehammers to a gang of vandals, to what extent are you responsible for the damage they cause with them? If they only use those tools for legit demolition work, are they obligated to pay you a cut of their revenue?