5 ms·

Is there a 2nd amendment flowchart? I feel like we'll be needing one soon.

by skrowl 11y ago

coldpie 11y ago
[ IS equipment vital to your hobby used to murder more than 10,000 people in the US per year? ] -> [ FIND a different hobby ]
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- j_syk 11y ago
  So my hobbies of homebrewing (88k alcohol related deaths), motorcycle riding (5k), and driving cars(22k) should all be banned?
  - ascagnel_ 11y ago
    88k alcohol "related" deaths is a suspicious number, but the other two require permits and licensure with mandated learning periods and an in-person demonstration that you can safely handle the vehicle. Gun regulations vary from state to state, and such a requirement is not present nationwide.
    - talmand 11y ago
      Alcohol, motorcycle, and vehicle regulations also vary state-to-state. There are examples of operating a motorcycle and/or vehicle without a state license is allowed. You are required to have a license to operate the vehicle on public roads, for instance. Many states have similar regulations on carrying a weapon in public, versus having a gun only in your house. These states usually have similar requirements of training and demonstration of proficiency before granting a carry license. Although I've never heard of insurance for such a thing, but it wouldn't be a bad idea.
  - coldpie 11y ago
    I said "murder". That is, intentional killing of another human being.
    - j_syk 11y ago
      Do you know how many sport shooters or hunters are involved in murders? (legitimate question) While the situation in the US is bad, I don't think a straight ban is the answer. It's definitely complicated.
      - coldpie 11y ago
        > Do you know how many sport shooters or hunters are involved in murders? (legitimate question) No, and I don't understand the relevance. > While the situation in the US is bad, I don't think a straight ban is the answer. It's definitely complicated. It is indeed complicated, but it's pretty clear that the status quo isn't the answer either.
        j_syk 11y ago
        The first question is in reference to your original statement of "find a new hobby". I'm using that to say that target shooting or hunting are hobbies. Whereas owning a gun for "safety" or "being cool" is not a hobby. And my speculation is that the latter group of gun owners is more of the problem.
        coldpie 11y ago
        I think limiting gun ownership to the former group would be a reasonable compromise ;)
    - Retra 11y ago
      That's not what murder is.
ceejayoz 11y ago
[ Do you think the words "well regulated" mean "no regulation is permitted"? ] ---YES---> [ Go back to school. ] The Second Amendment isn't going anywhere. A class of first graders got massacred and the country's overall reaction was "whoops!" If that doesn't move the gun control needle, not much will.
- briHass 11y ago
  Speaking of school...SCOTUS already made it perfectly clear that the only important aspect of the 2nd Amendment's wording is the second part. In their language from DC v Heller: "The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms." They already admit that the right isn't unlimited: " Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons."
  - ceejayoz 11y ago
    > They already admit that the right isn't unlimited. This is key. The NRA screams that any attempt to regulate any aspect of guns is unconstitutional, but that's clearly not the case. Said screaming has, unfortunately, been very politically effective.
- ehaliewicz2 11y ago
  It's interesting you use that as an example, because 'well regulated', at the time in which the law was written, meant well-equipped and in proper working order.
chiph 11y ago
Not one as such. But calguns.net has one for classifying a rifle as an assault weapon (or not) under California law. It's equally complicated (pdf warning): http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

Is there a 2nd amendment flowchart? I feel like we'll be needing one soon.

by skrowl 11y ago

Is there a 2nd amendment flowchart? I feel like we'll be needing one soon.

[ IS equipment vital to your hobby used to murder more than 10,000 people in the US per year? ] -> [ FIND a different hobby ]

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
j_syk 11y ago
So my hobbies of homebrewing (88k alcohol related deaths), motorcycle riding (5k), and driving cars(22k) should all be banned?
- ascagnel_ 11y ago
  88k alcohol "related" deaths is a suspicious number, but the other two require permits and licensure with mandated learning periods and an in-person demonstration that you can safely handle the vehicle. Gun regulations vary from state to state, and such a requirement is not present nationwide.
  - talmand 11y ago
    Alcohol, motorcycle, and vehicle regulations also vary state-to-state. There are examples of operating a motorcycle and/or vehicle without a state license is allowed. You are required to have a license to operate the vehicle on public roads, for instance. Many states have similar regulations on carrying a weapon in public, versus having a gun only in your house. These states usually have similar requirements of training and demonstration of proficiency before granting a carry license. Although I've never heard of insurance for such a thing, but it wouldn't be a bad idea.
- coldpie 11y ago
  I said "murder". That is, intentional killing of another human being.
  - j_syk 11y ago
    Do you know how many sport shooters or hunters are involved in murders? (legitimate question) While the situation in the US is bad, I don't think a straight ban is the answer. It's definitely complicated.
    - coldpie 11y ago
      > Do you know how many sport shooters or hunters are involved in murders? (legitimate question) No, and I don't understand the relevance. > While the situation in the US is bad, I don't think a straight ban is the answer. It's definitely complicated. It is indeed complicated, but it's pretty clear that the status quo isn't the answer either.
      - j_syk 11y ago
        The first question is in reference to your original statement of "find a new hobby". I'm using that to say that target shooting or hunting are hobbies. Whereas owning a gun for "safety" or "being cool" is not a hobby. And my speculation is that the latter group of gun owners is more of the problem.
        coldpie 11y ago
        I think limiting gun ownership to the former group would be a reasonable compromise ;)
  - Retra 11y ago
    That's not what murder is.

ceejayoz 11y ago

[ Do you think the words "well regulated" mean "no regulation is permitted"? ] ---YES---> [ Go back to school. ] The Second Amendment isn't going anywhere. A class of first graders got massacred and the country's overall reaction was "whoops!" If that doesn't move the gun control needle, not much will.

briHass 11y ago
Speaking of school...SCOTUS already made it perfectly clear that the only important aspect of the 2nd Amendment's wording is the second part. In their language from DC v Heller: "The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms." They already admit that the right isn't unlimited: " Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons."
- ceejayoz 11y ago
  > They already admit that the right isn't unlimited. This is key. The NRA screams that any attempt to regulate any aspect of guns is unconstitutional, but that's clearly not the case. Said screaming has, unfortunately, been very politically effective.
ehaliewicz2 11y ago
It's interesting you use that as an example, because 'well regulated', at the time in which the law was written, meant well-equipped and in proper working order.

chiph 11y ago

Not one as such. But calguns.net has one for classifying a rifle as an assault weapon (or not) under California law. It's equally complicated (pdf warning): http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf