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So it's only five years in prison. Do you genuinely think that's appropriate punishment for some minor vandalism? Five years. I know American prison sentences

by TillE 11y ago

So it's only five years in prison. Do you genuinely think that's appropriate punishment for some minor vandalism? Five years. I know American prison sentences are insane in general, but consider what that sentence actually means.

tptacek 11y ago
We have no idea how long the sentence will be. Prosecutors said under 5 years. If I had to guess, it'll be closer to two years. I think the major problem with CFAA is the way in which sentences scale with damages. I generally think all criminal sentences are far too long. At the same time, this is a really unsympathetic defendant. It's not "minor vandalism" when the cleanup involves a $50,000 outside forensics investigation. I don't know if that's what Trib had to do, but much smaller companies than the Trib have had to pay much more in cleanup from otherwise innocuous breakins.
- TillE 11y ago
  Popehat said "That's consistent with my calculation of 53-61 months guideline range." Two years is also a really, really long time. Who cares in the slightest if the defendant is or isn't an asshole? No, seriously. Empathy and basic humanity do not work that way.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    The court cares of the defendant is an asshole. You will get a higher sentence for being remorseless. I agree that two years is a really long time. But then, I think a single year in prison for dealing heroin on a corner is also a really long time, and the people who get imprisoned for doing that had far fewer options and opportunities than Keys did, so it's hard for me to imagine Keys being anyone's cause celebre.
    - jfager 11y ago
      Keys is an asshole, and low-level nonviolent drug offenders absolutely should not be treated as they are. Both of these things are completely irrelevant to the fact that any jail time for defacing a website is completely insane, the result of a witch-hunt mentality surrounding computer-based crimes.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        Why do people keep oversimplifying this to "defacing a website"? If you were running ops for a tech company and your website was defaced, would your costs stop at the point where you restore the original content to the website? Of course they wouldn't.
        jfager 11y ago
        Keys posted active credentials to a forum, and those credentials were used by others to deface a website. Do you regard that as a fair statement of what happened? Still completely insane to send someone to prison for that.
        tptacek 11y ago
        He posted active credentials to the (his words) secret chat room of a "group of renegade criminal" hackers, and pleaded with them to trash Tribune properties --- he was distraught when the people on that channel merely poked around and tried to maintain their access. Ultimately, Keys was disappointed --- again, his words --- with the minimal damage done to his former employer. It does not seem at all insane to send someone for prison for that.
        jfager 11y ago
        The actual damages that resulted from his actions were pretty small and purely financial. Even if you prosecute on the basis of what could have happened (maybe we start charging everyone who runs a red light with manslaughter?), we're still not reaching the level of physical harm to anyone or (barring complete negligence on the part of the Tribune) a catastrophic material loss. You really think society's need to avenge that wrong is worth spending $30k a year to hold him in federal prison, exposing him to possible violent harm, and depriving him of his future? Sorry, but that's insane. He should pay the actual damages, a punitive fine, and perform community service, tops.
    - nmrm2 11y ago
      > You will get a higher sentence for being remorseless. This creates really perverse incentives, though. How in the world do you maintain innocence without being "remorseless"? At base, this operates from an assumption that the court system always finds the Truth. Which IMO is a pretty ignorance/arrogant assumption.
      - tedunangst 11y ago
        Yes, that is a problem (and even worse facing a parole board), but showing remorse is very much about convincing the court you won't do it again. So explain that you think the crime in question is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad act and that you would never do such a thing, especially not in the future. As opposed to e.g. insisting even if you didn't do it, they had it coming anyway.
      - ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
        "but showing remorse is very much about convincing the court you won't do it again."-but you're all but admitting you did it once in order to say that you won't do it again.
        tedunangst 11y ago
        So explain that you think the crime in question is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad act and that you would never do such a thing, especially not in the future.
  - tedunangst 11y ago
    Isn't the humanitarian view that we should reform, not punish, criminals? Assholes need more reforming.
- mcguire 11y ago
  "Prosecutors wrote in the indictment that Tribune spent more than $5,000 responding to the attack and restoring its systems." -- http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-matthew-keys-convicted-hacking-la-times-20151007-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-matthew-keys-con...

by TillE 11y ago

tptacek 11y ago

We have no idea how long the sentence will be. Prosecutors said under 5 years. If I had to guess, it'll be closer to two years. I think the major problem with CFAA is the way in which sentences scale with damages. I generally think all criminal sentences are far too long. At the same time, this is a really unsympathetic defendant. It's not "minor vandalism" when the cleanup involves a $50,000 outside forensics investigation. I don't know if that's what Trib had to do, but much smaller companies than the Trib have had to pay much more in cleanup from otherwise innocuous breakins.

TillE 11y ago
Popehat said "That's consistent with my calculation of 53-61 months guideline range." Two years is also a really, really long time. Who cares in the slightest if the defendant is or isn't an asshole? No, seriously. Empathy and basic humanity do not work that way.
- tptacek 11y ago
  The court cares of the defendant is an asshole. You will get a higher sentence for being remorseless. I agree that two years is a really long time. But then, I think a single year in prison for dealing heroin on a corner is also a really long time, and the people who get imprisoned for doing that had far fewer options and opportunities than Keys did, so it's hard for me to imagine Keys being anyone's cause celebre.
  - jfager 11y ago
    Keys is an asshole, and low-level nonviolent drug offenders absolutely should not be treated as they are. Both of these things are completely irrelevant to the fact that any jail time for defacing a website is completely insane, the result of a witch-hunt mentality surrounding computer-based crimes.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      Why do people keep oversimplifying this to "defacing a website"? If you were running ops for a tech company and your website was defaced, would your costs stop at the point where you restore the original content to the website? Of course they wouldn't.
      - jfager 11y ago
        Keys posted active credentials to a forum, and those credentials were used by others to deface a website. Do you regard that as a fair statement of what happened? Still completely insane to send someone to prison for that.
        tptacek 11y ago
        He posted active credentials to the (his words) secret chat room of a "group of renegade criminal" hackers, and pleaded with them to trash Tribune properties --- he was distraught when the people on that channel merely poked around and tried to maintain their access. Ultimately, Keys was disappointed --- again, his words --- with the minimal damage done to his former employer. It does not seem at all insane to send someone for prison for that.
        jfager 11y ago
        The actual damages that resulted from his actions were pretty small and purely financial. Even if you prosecute on the basis of what could have happened (maybe we start charging everyone who runs a red light with manslaughter?), we're still not reaching the level of physical harm to anyone or (barring complete negligence on the part of the Tribune) a catastrophic material loss. You really think society's need to avenge that wrong is worth spending $30k a year to hold him in federal prison, exposing him to possible violent harm, and depriving him of his future? Sorry, but that's insane. He should pay the actual damages, a punitive fine, and perform community service, tops.
  - nmrm2 11y ago
    > You will get a higher sentence for being remorseless. This creates really perverse incentives, though. How in the world do you maintain innocence without being "remorseless"? At base, this operates from an assumption that the court system always finds the Truth. Which IMO is a pretty ignorance/arrogant assumption.
    - tedunangst 11y ago
      Yes, that is a problem (and even worse facing a parole board), but showing remorse is very much about convincing the court you won't do it again. So explain that you think the crime in question is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad act and that you would never do such a thing, especially not in the future. As opposed to e.g. insisting even if you didn't do it, they had it coming anyway.
    - ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
      "but showing remorse is very much about convincing the court you won't do it again."-but you're all but admitting you did it once in order to say that you won't do it again.
      - tedunangst 11y ago
        So explain that you think the crime in question is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad act and that you would never do such a thing, especially not in the future.
- tedunangst 11y ago
  Isn't the humanitarian view that we should reform, not punish, criminals? Assholes need more reforming.
mcguire 11y ago
"Prosecutors wrote in the indictment that Tribune spent more than $5,000 responding to the attack and restoring its systems." -- http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-matthew-keys-convicted-hacking-la-times-20151007-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-matthew-keys-con...