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One of the infuriately amazing things about Roman history is the tendency for people to see within the past whatever lesson they most want to communicate to the

One of the infuriately amazing things about Roman history is the tendency for people to see within the past whatever lesson they most want to communicate to the present. Some see Rome through the eyes of the conservative: Once a great nation that fell to decadence and handouts to the populares. Other see Rome through the eyes of a more socialist/anarchist bent: Once a great nation frittered away on useless wars while elites competed for power. The truth? Rome is complex and fairly well recorded. We can know a lot about it and it allows us to see that humans build quite complex and often contradictory societies. Easy, bumper-sticker versions of this are often at least partially wrong and do not do justice to the very vibrant lives that the Romans lead. Similarly, they too were often slaves to the bigger trends and forces that were often unseen in daily lives. That's a long way of saying, be careful when you think you've got a lesson from history. It probably says more about you than the Romans.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
gadders 11y ago
Pretty much. I bet there isn't a political position today that you couldn't find a examples from history both for and against.
- iron_ball 11y ago
  In Neal Stephenson's Anathem, there was an entire faction of monks who researched intellectual history specifically to warn modern-day philosophers when they were treading dusty ground. In fact, one of the only open questions (in their mind) was whether literally every possible thought had already been conceived.
blfr 11y ago
These are not excluding explanations, hardly even competing. Although a conservative lesson would be more along the lines of losing virtue and allowing foreigners to overrun the empire. All of the above are true to some extent.
rmc 11y ago
There are literally hundreds of theories as to why Rome fell. Here's a list http://www.utexas.edu/courses/rome/210reasons.html http://www.utexas.edu/courses/rome/210reasons.html
- sandbags 11y ago
  That's a great list, thank you (esp. as I am making a board game about the fall of the Republic!)
  - Artistry121 11y ago
    That's awesome. Please keep me updated as you get close to finishing - my email is in my profile.
  - walterbell 11y ago
    There is good detail in (SF writer) R.A. Lafferty's The Fall of Rome, http://sentent.blogspot.com/2010/05/r-lafferty-and-semitic-germans-of-300.html http://sentent.blogspot.com/2010/05/r-lafferty-and-semitic-g... http://www.amazon.com/The-fall-Rome-R-Lafferty/dp/B0006CALC4 http://www.amazon.com/The-fall-Rome-R-Lafferty/dp/B0006CALC4 http://theevitable.blogspot.com/2009/01/ra-laffertys-fall-of-rome.html http://theevitable.blogspot.com/2009/01/ra-laffertys-fall-of...
- km3k 11y ago
  My favorite from that list: 22. "Bread and circuses" I'd love to see the theory on that one. Edit: It's way more boring than I hoped. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses
  - xlm1717 11y ago
    Not necessarily boring. Someone even managed to turn it into a best-selling series of books and major motion pictures: The Hunger Games. The name of the country in The Hunger Games is Panem, meaning, of course, bread! The games themselves are the circus used to pacify the populace, either through entertainment for the upper classes, or fear for the lower classes. The most fun part of Wikipedia is always following the related links at the bottom of the article.
wisty 11y ago
Wasn't it simply that Rome gained significant technological arbitrage (with weapons, tactics, infrastructure, etc), which allowed it to gain a huge "market share", but as the competition copied their innovations the vertically integrated but inefficient Empire was effectively disrupted?
arethuza 11y ago
I think you could leave "Roman" out of that first sentence.
ckozlowski 11y ago
>"Be careful when you think you've got a lesson from history. It probably says more about you than the Romans." This is one of those times I read something that I know I'll find myself quoting for a long time to come. Thanks for that.
- walterbell 11y ago
  Historian Vera Keller said, in Episode 1 of the CBC series "Making Modern Publics", https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2984068 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2984068 "You know that 19th century commonplace, "If you don't know history, you're doomed to repeat it?" That's what most people think is the reason why you do history: you're doomed to repeat it. Historians don't think you're doomed to repeat it. Historians don't think in cycles of history, the way they did in say, the fourteenth century. We think in terms of arrows of time. You're not doomed to repeat anything. What you're doomed to do is to continue it. Early modern Europe has established so much of the modern world, and so many of the ideas that we have in our brain, were thought up once upon a time, for some reason that made sense—perhaps, perhaps not—at that time. We continue to have those ideas inside our heads and we don't even realize that they are products of history. Unless you understand the history, you have no choice to examine those ideas and decide whether or not they make sense, or that they are moral, or they have anything to do with you, or your culture. And so it's only by understanding your whole world as a historical product, and specifically as a product of early modern Europe, that you can do anything to change your world."
MichaelMoser123 11y ago
> That's a long way of saying, be careful when you think you've got a lesson from history. It probably says more about you than the Romans. Isn't that the whole point of the exercise - finding similarities with Roman history conveys authority to something you want to say about the present.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

gadders 11y ago

Pretty much. I bet there isn't a political position today that you couldn't find a examples from history both for and against.

iron_ball 11y ago
In Neal Stephenson's Anathem, there was an entire faction of monks who researched intellectual history specifically to warn modern-day philosophers when they were treading dusty ground. In fact, one of the only open questions (in their mind) was whether literally every possible thought had already been conceived.

blfr 11y ago

These are not excluding explanations, hardly even competing. Although a conservative lesson would be more along the lines of losing virtue and allowing foreigners to overrun the empire. All of the above are true to some extent.

rmc 11y ago

There are literally hundreds of theories as to why Rome fell. Here's a list http://www.utexas.edu/courses/rome/210reasons.html http://www.utexas.edu/courses/rome/210reasons.html

sandbags 11y ago
That's a great list, thank you (esp. as I am making a board game about the fall of the Republic!)
- Artistry121 11y ago
  That's awesome. Please keep me updated as you get close to finishing - my email is in my profile.
- walterbell 11y ago
  There is good detail in (SF writer) R.A. Lafferty's The Fall of Rome, http://sentent.blogspot.com/2010/05/r-lafferty-and-semitic-germans-of-300.html http://sentent.blogspot.com/2010/05/r-lafferty-and-semitic-g... http://www.amazon.com/The-fall-Rome-R-Lafferty/dp/B0006CALC4 http://www.amazon.com/The-fall-Rome-R-Lafferty/dp/B0006CALC4 http://theevitable.blogspot.com/2009/01/ra-laffertys-fall-of-rome.html http://theevitable.blogspot.com/2009/01/ra-laffertys-fall-of...
km3k 11y ago
My favorite from that list: 22. "Bread and circuses" I'd love to see the theory on that one. Edit: It's way more boring than I hoped. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses
- xlm1717 11y ago
  Not necessarily boring. Someone even managed to turn it into a best-selling series of books and major motion pictures: The Hunger Games. The name of the country in The Hunger Games is Panem, meaning, of course, bread! The games themselves are the circus used to pacify the populace, either through entertainment for the upper classes, or fear for the lower classes. The most fun part of Wikipedia is always following the related links at the bottom of the article.

wisty 11y ago

Wasn't it simply that Rome gained significant technological arbitrage (with weapons, tactics, infrastructure, etc), which allowed it to gain a huge "market share", but as the competition copied their innovations the vertically integrated but inefficient Empire was effectively disrupted?

arethuza 11y ago

I think you could leave "Roman" out of that first sentence.

ckozlowski 11y ago

>"Be careful when you think you've got a lesson from history. It probably says more about you than the Romans." This is one of those times I read something that I know I'll find myself quoting for a long time to come. Thanks for that.

walterbell 11y ago
Historian Vera Keller said, in Episode 1 of the CBC series "Making Modern Publics", https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2984068 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2984068 "You know that 19th century commonplace, "If you don't know history, you're doomed to repeat it?" That's what most people think is the reason why you do history: you're doomed to repeat it. Historians don't think you're doomed to repeat it. Historians don't think in cycles of history, the way they did in say, the fourteenth century. We think in terms of arrows of time. You're not doomed to repeat anything. What you're doomed to do is to continue it. Early modern Europe has established so much of the modern world, and so many of the ideas that we have in our brain, were thought up once upon a time, for some reason that made sense—perhaps, perhaps not—at that time. We continue to have those ideas inside our heads and we don't even realize that they are products of history. Unless you understand the history, you have no choice to examine those ideas and decide whether or not they make sense, or that they are moral, or they have anything to do with you, or your culture. And so it's only by understanding your whole world as a historical product, and specifically as a product of early modern Europe, that you can do anything to change your world."

MichaelMoser123 11y ago

> That's a long way of saying, be careful when you think you've got a lesson from history. It probably says more about you than the Romans. Isn't that the whole point of the exercise - finding similarities with Roman history conveys authority to something you want to say about the present.