4 ms·

There's a saying I like: you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. Racism isn't a reasonable position, showing someone ho

by Frondo 11y ago

There's a saying I like: you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. Racism isn't a reasonable position, showing someone how and why they're wrong isn't going to do anything. Showing someone that spouting that junk isn't socially acceptable anywhere is how you'll end those attitudes. People are social creatures long before they're rational ones--use social tools, not logical ones.

sheepmullet 11y ago
> Racism isn't a reasonable position What do you mean by reasonable? Logical? Acceptable? Natural? Normal? Understandable? I'd argue a lot of the low level racism and sexism we see on Reddit is entirely natural. It's natural for a woman who has been sexually abused to be a little bit sexist towards men. It's natural for a man who has his kids taken away from him by his ex-wife to be a bit bitter towards women. It's totally understandable that a Chinese kid who has been heavily bullied for years by black kids at his school will have reservations about black people in general. Etc etc etc.
Thriptic 11y ago
> Showing someone that spouting that junk isn't socially acceptable anywhere is how you'll end those attitudes. I disagree. Attacking people for their views (for example, calling them a racist or down voting them to hell) is how you reinforce existing negative attitudes, not end them. If you'll indulge me, I'd like to present some anecdata. I remember entering into a comment thread on HN using a throwaway in which hacker culture was being attacked as being inherently misogynistic. The statements being espoused seemed extremely overblown based on my experience. It also seemed ridiculous to throw an entire culture under the bus because specific elements of it may be bad. When I voiced these opinions I was immediately attacked by someone who didn't even know me, who implied that I was a misogynist by not agreeing with their position. This shifted the discussion away from being about ideas to being about my personal character, so my internal reaction was something along the lines of "well fuck you and your stupid ideas then" and I left the thread. Any chance for productive dialogue was immediately over, and I left with a highly negative view of feminism and a bias against feminists which I didn't have when I entered the thread. Fast forward a few months and I was hanging out with a good friend of mine who is a female developer. Sexism in the workplace somehow came up in conversation, and I again stated that the opinions being voiced by some of these women seemed like bullshit (using stronger terms than my first statement). She calmly said she could see how I would think so given my experience, but that it was indeed as bad as it sounded. We continued the conversation, and I came away with my mind changed. This would never have happened had she not engaged me in dialogue, and I would likely still harbor a subtle or overt bias against feminists to this day.

by Frondo 11y ago

sheepmullet 11y ago

> Racism isn't a reasonable position What do you mean by reasonable? Logical? Acceptable? Natural? Normal? Understandable? I'd argue a lot of the low level racism and sexism we see on Reddit is entirely natural. It's natural for a woman who has been sexually abused to be a little bit sexist towards men. It's natural for a man who has his kids taken away from him by his ex-wife to be a bit bitter towards women. It's totally understandable that a Chinese kid who has been heavily bullied for years by black kids at his school will have reservations about black people in general. Etc etc etc.

Thriptic 11y ago

> Showing someone that spouting that junk isn't socially acceptable anywhere is how you'll end those attitudes. I disagree. Attacking people for their views (for example, calling them a racist or down voting them to hell) is how you reinforce existing negative attitudes, not end them. If you'll indulge me, I'd like to present some anecdata. I remember entering into a comment thread on HN using a throwaway in which hacker culture was being attacked as being inherently misogynistic. The statements being espoused seemed extremely overblown based on my experience. It also seemed ridiculous to throw an entire culture under the bus because specific elements of it may be bad. When I voiced these opinions I was immediately attacked by someone who didn't even know me, who implied that I was a misogynist by not agreeing with their position. This shifted the discussion away from being about ideas to being about my personal character, so my internal reaction was something along the lines of "well fuck you and your stupid ideas then" and I left the thread. Any chance for productive dialogue was immediately over, and I left with a highly negative view of feminism and a bias against feminists which I didn't have when I entered the thread. Fast forward a few months and I was hanging out with a good friend of mine who is a female developer. Sexism in the workplace somehow came up in conversation, and I again stated that the opinions being voiced by some of these women seemed like bullshit (using stronger terms than my first statement). She calmly said she could see how I would think so given my experience, but that it was indeed as bad as it sounded. We continued the conversation, and I came away with my mind changed. This would never have happened had she not engaged me in dialogue, and I would likely still harbor a subtle or overt bias against feminists to this day.