7 ms·

Austerity and mental health in the U.K.

51 points by tomkwok 11y ago

raverbashing 11y ago
The UK welfare model has succeded in creating a generation completely dependent on the government and with a high sense of entitlement No wonder the immigrants have a higher level of employment and literacy
- tomtoise 11y ago
  I'm not too sure what you mean by a generation completely dependent on government. Or high sense of entitlement. 23 year old graduate here from the UK - never touched welfare in my life, never had to. But happy to pay tax for those that need welfare. It's hardly a life choice.
- tonyedgecombe 11y ago
  http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7491b154-0850-11e5-85de-00144feabdc0.html http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7491b154-0850-11e5-85de-00144feabd... "In the US labour market participation rates now lag five percentage points behind the UK." "In Britain, however, the workless family – perennial preoccupation of politicians, policymakers and tabloid newspapers – is as rare as it was it was 30 years ago, unless a member of the household is disabled."
  - raverbashing 11y ago
    Note I'm not against welfare per se (I can't read your article because paywall) And to be fair http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/characteristics-and-outcomes-migrants-uk-labour-market http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/character...
- edits 11y ago
  Has it? Where's your evidence? Or are you simply parroting the rhetoric of the right-wing press?
  - raverbashing 11y ago
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/13/male-employment-rate-immigrants-oecd http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/13/male-employment-ra...
    - AlisdairO 11y ago
      Not all that surprised. Immigration selects for capacity to uproot your life and travel to a potentially far away place, which selects for the motivated and reasonably healthy (healthcare tourism aside). I doubt shut-ins with serious mental health issues are making the leap in droves.
    - anon1385 11y ago
      Where is the evidence for "The UK welfare model has succeded in creating a generation completely dependent on the government"?
- porker 11y ago
  > The UK welfare model has succeded in creating a generation completely dependent on the government and with a high sense of entitlement If you are too ill to work in the USA, what happens? Are you left to die?
  - raverbashing 11y ago
    Really? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_programs_in_the_United_States#Social_security https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_programs_in_the_United_... Also, I'm not against welfare
- geographomics 11y ago
  Which generation is this? I live in the UK and I don't see this at all. Some people are dependent on government assistance, but typically with good reason: disability making them unfit for work, high unemployment / economic decline in their area, being too old to work, being a child in a poor family, and so on.
gadders 11y ago
There was an interesting discussion on the topic of people dying after being declared fit for work on the BBC Radio 4 show "More or Less" that examines statistics in the news [1]. It's a few weeks since I listened, but part of the argument would be that you would expect the death rate to be higher as by definition some of this population is in less than perfect health. The death rate for those that weren't declared fit for work was higher as well. Also between 2010 and 2014 total spending on welfare increased by £28 billion so austerity seems to be as much a PR exercise as anything <-- just to make clear, this wasn't part of the show. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06810qc http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06810qc
- tonyedgecombe 11y ago
  Yes, I don't think it's done the left much good harping on about austerity when we can all see people in the Mediterranean countries have had a much harder time than us.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- Yacoby 11y ago
  The increasing in welfare spending seems to be a result of increasing spending on pensions though? http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2006_2016UKb_15c1li111lcn_40t00t http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2006_2016UK...
  - gadders 11y ago
    It looks like it from that chart, yes. However, increasing pensions isn't a sign of austerity either.
    - anon1385 11y ago
      Austerity is a macroeconomic thing. I've not seen any definition of austerity that states or implies that it has to affect everybody equally, or that all people have to be negatively affected. So it makes little sense to argue that it isn't austerity just because one type of spending went up.
Shivetya 11y ago
You have to love how austerity has been redefined. What austerity? The UK total budget expenditures have gone up every year. They might be lower versus GDP but that is the result of a recovering economy. You do not have an austerity problem if your budget is increasing. You have a spending problem. The UK's mental health woes are simply an issue that their government managed health care didn't deliver on promises and overspends in other areas. So sorry, there is no problem cause by austerity here. Always scoff when you see such claims as your more than likely to find government expenditures have increased.
- nbevans 11y ago
  +1 The UK is one of the few shining beacons in Europe at the moment. Why do the left think we've so many "asylum" migrants illegally trying to cross using heavy goods vehicles and the Channel Tunnel? Many "asylum" seekers reach Greece, Hungary, France, even Germany (!) and declare "this isn't good enough, we want asylum in the UK!".
  - richmarr 11y ago
    > Many "asylum" seekers reach Greece, Hungary, France, even Germany (!) and declare "this isn't good enough, we want asylum in the UK!". Illegal immigrants drive down unskilled labour costs, which is beneficial to the economy... they don't get welfare, or have access to non-emergency healthcare, and they typically live in cramped shared accomodation so put much less strain per head on housing than all the Russian oligarchs who buy Chelsea investment properties to leave vacant. So I'm not really sure what your objection is... unless it's the obvious one. Oh wait, maybe it's ZOMGTHETERRRRRRRIZM! Not sure that's a huge bother to be honest, all our recent terrorism has been home-grown.
    - nbevans 11y ago
      Please quote where my objection was :) Observation, reasoning != objection. But yes, for the record, I do object and the current UK government objects to it. Which is why we haven't opened up the flood gates like Germany, stupidly, did.
DanBC 11y ago
Department of Work and Pensions had to create a document for staff in JobCentre+ because so many "customers" were declaring their intent to die by suicide. It's good that they have a policy. It's scary that they need it. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/70850/response/174789/attach/3/FoI%201264%20Annex%20A.pdf https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/70850/response/174789... It's pretty annoying to hear Priti Patel (and people in this thread) deny the reality: benefits sanctions cause suicide. http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/one-in-five-benefit-related-deaths-involved-sanctions-admits-dwp/ http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/one-in-five-benefit-rel... (And people who are sanctioned aren't all knowingly doing something wrong. They've been open and honest and declared everything to DWP. But currently DWP will suspend your claim, then send you the letter asking for more information. You don't get that letter? The first you know is when your benefits are suspended.) Edit: > In the UK, suicide rates rose in 2011 and 2012 (the most recent data available). Newer data is just coming out. Small rise in deaths by suicide in women, small drop in deaths by suicide for men. EDIT2: link to data sort of here. http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-transparency/freedom-of-information/what-can-i-request/published-ad-hoc-data/health/september-2015/index.html http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-transparency/fr...
- mattbee 11y ago
  From that DWP advice to their staff on handling suicidal clients: "Expressions of suicidal thoughts are common amongst the general population. This does not mean that they are never serious statements of intent." What the fuck? No they're not common.
nbevans 11y ago
This leftist idea that the UK operating an environment of "austerity" is laughable.
- geographomics 11y ago
  It's not a "leftist idea", it's official UK government policy.
  - nbevans 11y ago
    See Greece as an example of what a governmental policy of austerity looks like in Europe. The UK government has a policy of saving costs where possible and improving efficiency of public services.
    - geographomics 11y ago
      I agree that Greece is another example of austerity, and one with more extreme measures than the UK. The current UK government hasn't done anything substantial to improve the efficiency of public services. Instead they've generally reduced the level of service. It's not more efficient, just worse.
      - vixen99 11y ago
        The poor of Greece are picking up the bill for its past actions which have been very well documented. The as-yet-unborn in the UK will pick up a future bill for today's party - with many not invited. Sadly all this is an anthropological problem linked to the unending appeal of bread and circuses as offered by politicians who enjoy being in power and know how to achieve that end. People get hurt as a result; tragic but much of it inevitable and saying it isn't doesn't make it so.
      - nbevans 11y ago
        So we've gone from "outright austerity" to just "reducing the level of service". That's okay by me and by the UK public that secured the current government an overwhelming majority in the recent election. Those people experiencing the reduced level of service never deserved the red carpet and gold plating anyway. A 4 star hotel is still good; but yes I can see why one might be upset if they were forced to downgrade from a 5 star hotel. Running out of analogies now.
forloop 11y ago
We've still got the war on drugs, in the UK. If that was ceased, there would be savings of around 5B (conservatively, from what I've seen). It, mainly, fucks two lots of people; 1) Those caught up in the "war". 2) Those who would otherwise have the money spent on them (broadly, the disadvantaged). Note, those two sets don't make up the majority, and have the least ability to enact change. I think it's fair to characterise democracy as two foxes and a hen voting on what's for dinner!
- logicchains 11y ago
  >I think it's fair to characterise democracy as two foxes and a hen voting on what's for dinner! Given the nature of the original quote ("Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin), does that imply that the poor need more guns?
  - pjc50 11y ago
    > more guns The armed insurrection in Northern Ireland did eventually, after 30 years of human rights violations, 3500 dead and 47000 injured, mortar attacks on Downing Street, the near-annihilation of the government in a Brighton hotel, and the assasination of the Queen's cousin, result in improved treatment of and economic opportunities for the Catholic population. This really isn't the best way to handle budgets. Democracy is about achieving better results without having to kill people.
  - 0xcde4c3db 11y ago
    For what it's worth, Franklin probably never said that. The use of "have for lunch", marks it as too modern, and I can't find any attestation at all prior to a minor variation of the first sentence showing up on Usenet in 1990 (the author didn't present it as a quotation).
ch215 11y ago
I've had mental health problems and, family aside, nothing--not exercise, medicine nor therapy--has helped me more than having work to do. There's a lot to be said for having a job to set your mind to.

51 points by tomkwok 11y ago

The UK welfare model has succeded in creating a generation completely dependent on the government and with a high sense of entitlement No wonder the immigrants have a higher level of employment and literacy

tomtoise 11y ago
I'm not too sure what you mean by a generation completely dependent on government. Or high sense of entitlement. 23 year old graduate here from the UK - never touched welfare in my life, never had to. But happy to pay tax for those that need welfare. It's hardly a life choice.
tonyedgecombe 11y ago
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7491b154-0850-11e5-85de-00144feabdc0.html http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7491b154-0850-11e5-85de-00144feabd... "In the US labour market participation rates now lag five percentage points behind the UK." "In Britain, however, the workless family – perennial preoccupation of politicians, policymakers and tabloid newspapers – is as rare as it was it was 30 years ago, unless a member of the household is disabled."
- raverbashing 11y ago
  Note I'm not against welfare per se (I can't read your article because paywall) And to be fair http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/characteristics-and-outcomes-migrants-uk-labour-market http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/character...
edits 11y ago
Has it? Where's your evidence? Or are you simply parroting the rhetoric of the right-wing press?
- raverbashing 11y ago
  http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/13/male-employment-rate-immigrants-oecd http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/13/male-employment-ra...
  - AlisdairO 11y ago
    Not all that surprised. Immigration selects for capacity to uproot your life and travel to a potentially far away place, which selects for the motivated and reasonably healthy (healthcare tourism aside). I doubt shut-ins with serious mental health issues are making the leap in droves.
  - anon1385 11y ago
    Where is the evidence for "The UK welfare model has succeded in creating a generation completely dependent on the government"?
porker 11y ago
> The UK welfare model has succeded in creating a generation completely dependent on the government and with a high sense of entitlement If you are too ill to work in the USA, what happens? Are you left to die?
- raverbashing 11y ago
  Really? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_programs_in_the_United_States#Social_security https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_programs_in_the_United_... Also, I'm not against welfare
geographomics 11y ago
Which generation is this? I live in the UK and I don't see this at all. Some people are dependent on government assistance, but typically with good reason: disability making them unfit for work, high unemployment / economic decline in their area, being too old to work, being a child in a poor family, and so on.

gadders 11y ago

There was an interesting discussion on the topic of people dying after being declared fit for work on the BBC Radio 4 show "More or Less" that examines statistics in the news [1]. It's a few weeks since I listened, but part of the argument would be that you would expect the death rate to be higher as by definition some of this population is in less than perfect health. The death rate for those that weren't declared fit for work was higher as well. Also between 2010 and 2014 total spending on welfare increased by £28 billion so austerity seems to be as much a PR exercise as anything <-- just to make clear, this wasn't part of the show. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06810qc http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06810qc

tonyedgecombe 11y ago
Yes, I don't think it's done the left much good harping on about austerity when we can all see people in the Mediterranean countries have had a much harder time than us.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
Yacoby 11y ago
The increasing in welfare spending seems to be a result of increasing spending on pensions though? http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2006_2016UKb_15c1li111lcn_40t00t http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2006_2016UK...
- gadders 11y ago
  It looks like it from that chart, yes. However, increasing pensions isn't a sign of austerity either.
  - anon1385 11y ago
    Austerity is a macroeconomic thing. I've not seen any definition of austerity that states or implies that it has to affect everybody equally, or that all people have to be negatively affected. So it makes little sense to argue that it isn't austerity just because one type of spending went up.

Shivetya 11y ago

You have to love how austerity has been redefined. What austerity? The UK total budget expenditures have gone up every year. They might be lower versus GDP but that is the result of a recovering economy. You do not have an austerity problem if your budget is increasing. You have a spending problem. The UK's mental health woes are simply an issue that their government managed health care didn't deliver on promises and overspends in other areas. So sorry, there is no problem cause by austerity here. Always scoff when you see such claims as your more than likely to find government expenditures have increased.

nbevans 11y ago
+1 The UK is one of the few shining beacons in Europe at the moment. Why do the left think we've so many "asylum" migrants illegally trying to cross using heavy goods vehicles and the Channel Tunnel? Many "asylum" seekers reach Greece, Hungary, France, even Germany (!) and declare "this isn't good enough, we want asylum in the UK!".
- richmarr 11y ago
  > Many "asylum" seekers reach Greece, Hungary, France, even Germany (!) and declare "this isn't good enough, we want asylum in the UK!". Illegal immigrants drive down unskilled labour costs, which is beneficial to the economy... they don't get welfare, or have access to non-emergency healthcare, and they typically live in cramped shared accomodation so put much less strain per head on housing than all the Russian oligarchs who buy Chelsea investment properties to leave vacant. So I'm not really sure what your objection is... unless it's the obvious one. Oh wait, maybe it's ZOMGTHETERRRRRRRIZM! Not sure that's a huge bother to be honest, all our recent terrorism has been home-grown.
  - nbevans 11y ago
    Please quote where my objection was :) Observation, reasoning != objection. But yes, for the record, I do object and the current UK government objects to it. Which is why we haven't opened up the flood gates like Germany, stupidly, did.

DanBC 11y ago

Department of Work and Pensions had to create a document for staff in JobCentre+ because so many "customers" were declaring their intent to die by suicide. It's good that they have a policy. It's scary that they need it. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/70850/response/174789/attach/3/FoI%201264%20Annex%20A.pdf https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/70850/response/174789... It's pretty annoying to hear Priti Patel (and people in this thread) deny the reality: benefits sanctions cause suicide. http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/one-in-five-benefit-related-deaths-involved-sanctions-admits-dwp/ http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/one-in-five-benefit-rel... (And people who are sanctioned aren't all knowingly doing something wrong. They've been open and honest and declared everything to DWP. But currently DWP will suspend your claim, then send you the letter asking for more information. You don't get that letter? The first you know is when your benefits are suspended.) Edit: > In the UK, suicide rates rose in 2011 and 2012 (the most recent data available). Newer data is just coming out. Small rise in deaths by suicide in women, small drop in deaths by suicide for men. EDIT2: link to data sort of here. http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-transparency/freedom-of-information/what-can-i-request/published-ad-hoc-data/health/september-2015/index.html http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-transparency/fr...

mattbee 11y ago
From that DWP advice to their staff on handling suicidal clients: "Expressions of suicidal thoughts are common amongst the general population. This does not mean that they are never serious statements of intent." What the fuck? No they're not common.

nbevans 11y ago

This leftist idea that the UK operating an environment of "austerity" is laughable.

geographomics 11y ago
It's not a "leftist idea", it's official UK government policy.
- nbevans 11y ago
  See Greece as an example of what a governmental policy of austerity looks like in Europe. The UK government has a policy of saving costs where possible and improving efficiency of public services.
  - geographomics 11y ago
    I agree that Greece is another example of austerity, and one with more extreme measures than the UK. The current UK government hasn't done anything substantial to improve the efficiency of public services. Instead they've generally reduced the level of service. It's not more efficient, just worse.
    - vixen99 11y ago
      The poor of Greece are picking up the bill for its past actions which have been very well documented. The as-yet-unborn in the UK will pick up a future bill for today's party - with many not invited. Sadly all this is an anthropological problem linked to the unending appeal of bread and circuses as offered by politicians who enjoy being in power and know how to achieve that end. People get hurt as a result; tragic but much of it inevitable and saying it isn't doesn't make it so.
    - nbevans 11y ago
      So we've gone from "outright austerity" to just "reducing the level of service". That's okay by me and by the UK public that secured the current government an overwhelming majority in the recent election. Those people experiencing the reduced level of service never deserved the red carpet and gold plating anyway. A 4 star hotel is still good; but yes I can see why one might be upset if they were forced to downgrade from a 5 star hotel. Running out of analogies now.

forloop 11y ago

We've still got the war on drugs, in the UK. If that was ceased, there would be savings of around 5B (conservatively, from what I've seen). It, mainly, fucks two lots of people; 1) Those caught up in the "war". 2) Those who would otherwise have the money spent on them (broadly, the disadvantaged). Note, those two sets don't make up the majority, and have the least ability to enact change. I think it's fair to characterise democracy as two foxes and a hen voting on what's for dinner!

logicchains 11y ago
>I think it's fair to characterise democracy as two foxes and a hen voting on what's for dinner! Given the nature of the original quote ("Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin), does that imply that the poor need more guns?
- pjc50 11y ago
  > more guns The armed insurrection in Northern Ireland did eventually, after 30 years of human rights violations, 3500 dead and 47000 injured, mortar attacks on Downing Street, the near-annihilation of the government in a Brighton hotel, and the assasination of the Queen's cousin, result in improved treatment of and economic opportunities for the Catholic population. This really isn't the best way to handle budgets. Democracy is about achieving better results without having to kill people.
- 0xcde4c3db 11y ago
  For what it's worth, Franklin probably never said that. The use of "have for lunch", marks it as too modern, and I can't find any attestation at all prior to a minor variation of the first sentence showing up on Usenet in 1990 (the author didn't present it as a quotation).

ch215 11y ago

I've had mental health problems and, family aside, nothing--not exercise, medicine nor therapy--has helped me more than having work to do. There's a lot to be said for having a job to set your mind to.