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Can Steve Huffman Save Reddit from Itself?

39 points by cryptoz 11y ago

MIKarlsen 11y ago
I think the first mistake here would be to consider Reddit as a one entity. Reddit is a weird place where content grow out of distinct subreddits, and sometimes, that content end up on the front-page (which I bet is the most commonly visited on Reddit). The discussions and "We are the Reddit army" is often a big fat joke (or circlejerk as Reddit calls it). People get eachother riled up, and start to believe that they have "a right" to dictate anything and everything regarding to the site politics. Just watch the whole fat-shaming incident. People were acting like someone was put on death-row, while pretty much all the management of the site did was take down a few horrible sub-reddits that made a laughing stock of people with serious problems. People started arguing that "condoning fat people was wrong" as if that was ever an argument. I think Reddit is beyond management. Last night I read that they're working on a new algorithm for the front-page which is probably the closest you get to control the "community" at this point.
- rodgerd 11y ago
  It says a lot about a chunk of the population that being a small, fairly obscure subreddit will generally result in Good Things, but becoming a default will quickly result in being overrun by racists, gay-haters, mysoginists, and suchlike. Heaven help you if your small subreddit attracts the attention of KiA, redpill, or the like, unless you enjoy a constant stream of filth from rape apologists.
  - anjc 11y ago
    > It says a lot about a chunk of the population that being a small, fairly obscure subreddit will generally result in Good Things, but becoming a default will quickly result in being overrun by racists, gay-haters, mysoginists, and suchlike. The dynamic on Reddit has been the exact opposite, whereby subreddits that become popular are taken over by "SJWs", for want of a better description. Can you name a single popular subreddit that's been overrun by gay-hate and misogyny through becoming a default?
    - vessenes 11y ago
      Well, TwoXChromosomes did not enjoy being put on the default subreddit list. A quick perusal of some top posts there right now looks like mods do a good job. But, my vibe was that they needed to significantly step up the amount of work they did when they hit the front page.
      - anjc 11y ago
        That's not really a great example, because a default sub is going to attract men on a site dominated by men, and the ethos of that sub is to, basically, not have men's views represented. This would naturally lead to friction and so it'd make sense that more moderation would be needed. I don't think it should've been made a default, anymore than /r/mensrights should be made default.
    - JulianMorrison 11y ago
      To sane people, "social justice warrior" translates as "not awful, has respect, a humane human being".
      - reitanqild 11y ago
        Thanks for the definition. I'm definitely sane and what goes for SJW today is something I do not want to be.
      - Kristine1975 11y ago
        I agree with you. However some people use social justice as an excuse to be awful to others. Combine that with the fact(?) that loud minorities are often generalized to be representative of the whole (especially when that minority confirms prejudices about the whole), and "social justice warrior" takes on a negative meaning.
        PavlovsCat 11y ago
        > However some people use social justice as an excuse to be awful to others. And to the degree they do that, they're not fighting for social justice. > loud minorities are often generalized to be representative of the whole Though often obsessedly so by people who don't seem to give much of a crap either way, anyway, and gloss over their own mute accompliceship in rather serious evils by pointing out things that are kind of peanuts in comparison. You know, when instead of criticizing people for hurting their own cause, or merely paying lip service to a cause that is actually worthy, unlike the petty games they use it for, they just go "Hah! See? that's what those SJW types are like". I don't see any serious people of high caliber using that abbreviation, that's for sure. And it's not like people criticize "tumblr-SJW" generally have their own serious websites or at least posts screaming bloody murder: for me someone without a solution getting mad and overshooting the goal is still preferable to someone completely numb, motionless, and maybe even gloating and proud of that. I know it's not a dichotomy, that there are many alternatives preferable to both, but in the given situation of that one group criticizing that other group, I know where my sympathies lie. > There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part! You can't even passively take part! And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels…upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop! And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all! -- Mario Savo ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhFvZRT7Ds0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhFvZRT7Ds0 ) ^ To me that's not pathos, that's the baseline, and we all fall short of it, which doesn't move it one inch. If some kiddos on the interwebs discover a slice of that and do their own stuff, good for them. Godspeed to them. And in so far they make asses of themselves, I hope they learn to pick themselves up and fail better in the future, but I can't say they are doing anything so horribly wrong their parents did or their peers are doing so much better. As Assata Shakur said, only the strong go crazy, the weak just go along; and that's why they build bubbles and communities in which they can have the appearance of being strong, and hide behind each other and their memes. That there is a grain of truth to some of them, that people indeed do use serious issues to get attention or money, doesn't really change that, it just means even a broken clock is right twice a day.
ljk 11y ago
Been using Reddit since before the "Digg Exodus" phase; The recent changes on reddit really doesn't look promising, with the front page suddenly feeling sluggish and other issues popping up... but I hope the Betteridge's law doesn't apply here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...
pervycreeper 11y ago
>the list of an individual user’s idiosyncratic sub-Reddit subscriptions is nothing if not a precise psychographic profile of his interests. Not to mention voting habits, which specify a user's tastes much more finely. The value of that information is potentially astronomical. More honest and finely grained info than facebook likes could be, for instance, similarly for ad tracking. Also reaches some hard to target demos.
- 36erhefg 11y ago
  Speaking of voting. I cannot find any terms of service for hacker news when you create an account. Can our information legally sold to advertisers?
  - icebraining 11y ago
    IANAL, but I'd say they can't sell the comments - they're copyrighted, and since they don't ask for an explicit license, the implied one is probably limited to displaying them on the site - but they could sell the votes/flags/karma information.
  - tdylan 11y ago
    YC has little (to nothing) to gain by selling HN info, but everything to lose.
mattlutze 11y ago
People seem to like lots of new content, and feeling like they have small, personal places to share content and have conversations with each other. If Huffamn et.al. can further refine that feeling of Reddit being a small community and also a massive community at the same time, I see no reason for the platform to not continue being a dominant player in the social space.
devit 11y ago
Not sure: he continued Ellen Pao's job in destroying the massive goodwill they had, and being a founder he was immune to calls to step down and effectively made the changes permanent. Reddit used to be loved and trusted as a place that cared about its community and free speech, but now most users probably stay on Reddit only because it's popular, and would jump ship as soon as a more popular alternative, even in just a niche, shows up. But of course, thanks to funding, possible good management and inertia, Reddit might just be able to out-innovate and out-compete anyone else and keep its current position.
- rodgerd 11y ago
  > cared about its community and free speech I'm sure we're all weeping over the demise of /r/coontown and other Stormfront-affiliated subreddits. What a sad loss, and what a valuable group of users to alienate!
  - hugh4 11y ago
    If you want to say something, say it. Don't say the opposite in a sarcastic tone.
    - rodgerd 11y ago
      I thought we loved free speech. Why are you opressing me?
    - pjc50 11y ago
      So you're in favour of all forms of free speech except sarcasm? Edit: ok, evidently jokes aren't a popular mode of speech either.
      - tdylan 11y ago
        This isn't about surpressing free speech. It's about basic communication and debate.
        11y ago
codingdave 11y ago
I think reddit has the potential to turn into something really worthwhile, if they let it. But my personal opinion is they need to let the current culture go, and think more about what they want this site to be in 5 years, 10 years, 50 years. What is their vision for social communications for the short, mid, and long-term future? Is it superficial communications and small discussions around niche interests? Or is more like the discussion boards as they existed, for example, in Ender's game, where where leaders of the world have serious talks about policy, politics, and philosophy, and invoke real change? I mention the Ender's game boards specifically because it seems so easy to start to transition reddit towards something like that. Make karma worth something. Have karma split into types for entertainment vs. insightful commentary, and earn your way onto "serious" boards. Let the current site just be the starting point, but build a new tier above it, of more serious talk. Build your way up into a multi-faceted communication tool that can be taken seriously by all levels of society, while still leaving the light-hearted, superficial nature of its current culture intact for those who want it. I have no idea what the reddit leadership desires... I am sure there are 1000 other directions it can be taken. But they need to pick a direction and start going there. Because right now, the site is growing in numbers, but stagnating by all other metrics.
- 36erhefg 11y ago
  What we're missing is a serious change in mentality. Internet Points/Karma and a different UI won't change that. We already have all the technology for such discussions, but no one is interested. The closest thing to serious public political discussions is happening in the House and Senate floor debates, or whatever is equivalent in your country, and nobody watches that.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    Ironically if you watch UK Prime Minister's Questions it consists primarily of point-scoring and jeering, with occasional excursions into triviality. On occasion in Parliament you will find people delivering impassioned, carefully researched speeches .. to an empty room. The prerequisite for discussion has to be willingness to listen and finding a commonality of view, both of which are in very short supply these days.
lumberjack 11y ago
Reddit has just grown too big and important. Neither the links nor the discussions feel genuine anymore. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. I wonder what will replace it. And of course I'm talking about the popular subreddits mostly concerning news and politics. Subreddits about classical music and such, still work fine. However any political subreddit seems compromised in some form or another.
ChuckFrank 11y ago
When we applied to YC, Steve was nice enough to meet with us at Hipmunk, and as with what he did there, I think he's going to do a great job at Reddit, where I've become an increasingly invested participant, once I learned how to dig deeper into the subreddits, such as /r/oakland or /r/vandwellers etc. I think, based upon my experience on the site, compared to those on fb and elsewhere, that Reddit continues to have incredible growth opportunities, because there are hundreds, nay thousands, of subreddits that we can't even imagine, people will create, once people discover their power, like /r/camelracing or /r/swatvalley, or who knows what. 10 years from now, I think Reddit will be (one of) the biggest site on the whole of the internet. And if not Reddit, than its many copy cats. I just wish there was some way that I could help, aside from what little moderating I do.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- tdobson 11y ago
  /r/vandwellers represent! :D
JanneVee 11y ago
Reddits problem is not the small communities people barely know that they exist until someone points them out. It is the shift in attitude in the bigger communities. I can spend hours finding specific examples but the gist of it is becoming more US-centric and "nerd dismissing" place by the day.
ChuckFrank 11y ago
Terrible reporting. I dug into those unsavory subreddits, and a huge number of them were mostly inactive, with hardly a posting for the last couple of years, and otherwise, like the fashion police one, they are hardly like what was described. I'm tired of this 'look how bad reddit is' reporting. It's boring and inaccurate.
snorrah 11y ago
Does reddit have funding issues currently? I ask because subjectively I've started getting more and more "too busy" HTTP 503's while browsing, which hints at a lack of capacity but surely that could be scaled out fairly easily if financies permit?
odiroot 11y ago
How do we save Reddit from the people who aggressively try to change it?

39 points by cryptoz 11y ago

I think the first mistake here would be to consider Reddit as a one entity. Reddit is a weird place where content grow out of distinct subreddits, and sometimes, that content end up on the front-page (which I bet is the most commonly visited on Reddit). The discussions and "We are the Reddit army" is often a big fat joke (or circlejerk as Reddit calls it). People get eachother riled up, and start to believe that they have "a right" to dictate anything and everything regarding to the site politics. Just watch the whole fat-shaming incident. People were acting like someone was put on death-row, while pretty much all the management of the site did was take down a few horrible sub-reddits that made a laughing stock of people with serious problems. People started arguing that "condoning fat people was wrong" as if that was ever an argument. I think Reddit is beyond management. Last night I read that they're working on a new algorithm for the front-page which is probably the closest you get to control the "community" at this point.

rodgerd 11y ago
It says a lot about a chunk of the population that being a small, fairly obscure subreddit will generally result in Good Things, but becoming a default will quickly result in being overrun by racists, gay-haters, mysoginists, and suchlike. Heaven help you if your small subreddit attracts the attention of KiA, redpill, or the like, unless you enjoy a constant stream of filth from rape apologists.
- anjc 11y ago
  > It says a lot about a chunk of the population that being a small, fairly obscure subreddit will generally result in Good Things, but becoming a default will quickly result in being overrun by racists, gay-haters, mysoginists, and suchlike. The dynamic on Reddit has been the exact opposite, whereby subreddits that become popular are taken over by "SJWs", for want of a better description. Can you name a single popular subreddit that's been overrun by gay-hate and misogyny through becoming a default?
  - vessenes 11y ago
    Well, TwoXChromosomes did not enjoy being put on the default subreddit list. A quick perusal of some top posts there right now looks like mods do a good job. But, my vibe was that they needed to significantly step up the amount of work they did when they hit the front page.
    - anjc 11y ago
      That's not really a great example, because a default sub is going to attract men on a site dominated by men, and the ethos of that sub is to, basically, not have men's views represented. This would naturally lead to friction and so it'd make sense that more moderation would be needed. I don't think it should've been made a default, anymore than /r/mensrights should be made default.
  - JulianMorrison 11y ago
    To sane people, "social justice warrior" translates as "not awful, has respect, a humane human being".
    - reitanqild 11y ago
      Thanks for the definition. I'm definitely sane and what goes for SJW today is something I do not want to be.
    - Kristine1975 11y ago
      I agree with you. However some people use social justice as an excuse to be awful to others. Combine that with the fact(?) that loud minorities are often generalized to be representative of the whole (especially when that minority confirms prejudices about the whole), and "social justice warrior" takes on a negative meaning.
      - PavlovsCat 11y ago
        > However some people use social justice as an excuse to be awful to others. And to the degree they do that, they're not fighting for social justice. > loud minorities are often generalized to be representative of the whole Though often obsessedly so by people who don't seem to give much of a crap either way, anyway, and gloss over their own mute accompliceship in rather serious evils by pointing out things that are kind of peanuts in comparison. You know, when instead of criticizing people for hurting their own cause, or merely paying lip service to a cause that is actually worthy, unlike the petty games they use it for, they just go "Hah! See? that's what those SJW types are like". I don't see any serious people of high caliber using that abbreviation, that's for sure. And it's not like people criticize "tumblr-SJW" generally have their own serious websites or at least posts screaming bloody murder: for me someone without a solution getting mad and overshooting the goal is still preferable to someone completely numb, motionless, and maybe even gloating and proud of that. I know it's not a dichotomy, that there are many alternatives preferable to both, but in the given situation of that one group criticizing that other group, I know where my sympathies lie. > There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part! You can't even passively take part! And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels…upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop! And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all! -- Mario Savo ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhFvZRT7Ds0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhFvZRT7Ds0 ) ^ To me that's not pathos, that's the baseline, and we all fall short of it, which doesn't move it one inch. If some kiddos on the interwebs discover a slice of that and do their own stuff, good for them. Godspeed to them. And in so far they make asses of themselves, I hope they learn to pick themselves up and fail better in the future, but I can't say they are doing anything so horribly wrong their parents did or their peers are doing so much better. As Assata Shakur said, only the strong go crazy, the weak just go along; and that's why they build bubbles and communities in which they can have the appearance of being strong, and hide behind each other and their memes. That there is a grain of truth to some of them, that people indeed do use serious issues to get attention or money, doesn't really change that, it just means even a broken clock is right twice a day.

ljk 11y ago

Been using Reddit since before the "Digg Exodus" phase; The recent changes on reddit really doesn't look promising, with the front page suddenly feeling sluggish and other issues popping up... but I hope the Betteridge's law doesn't apply here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...

pervycreeper 11y ago

>the list of an individual user’s idiosyncratic sub-Reddit subscriptions is nothing if not a precise psychographic profile of his interests. Not to mention voting habits, which specify a user's tastes much more finely. The value of that information is potentially astronomical. More honest and finely grained info than facebook likes could be, for instance, similarly for ad tracking. Also reaches some hard to target demos.

36erhefg 11y ago
Speaking of voting. I cannot find any terms of service for hacker news when you create an account. Can our information legally sold to advertisers?
- icebraining 11y ago
  IANAL, but I'd say they can't sell the comments - they're copyrighted, and since they don't ask for an explicit license, the implied one is probably limited to displaying them on the site - but they could sell the votes/flags/karma information.
- tdylan 11y ago
  YC has little (to nothing) to gain by selling HN info, but everything to lose.

mattlutze 11y ago

People seem to like lots of new content, and feeling like they have small, personal places to share content and have conversations with each other. If Huffamn et.al. can further refine that feeling of Reddit being a small community and also a massive community at the same time, I see no reason for the platform to not continue being a dominant player in the social space.

devit 11y ago

Not sure: he continued Ellen Pao's job in destroying the massive goodwill they had, and being a founder he was immune to calls to step down and effectively made the changes permanent. Reddit used to be loved and trusted as a place that cared about its community and free speech, but now most users probably stay on Reddit only because it's popular, and would jump ship as soon as a more popular alternative, even in just a niche, shows up. But of course, thanks to funding, possible good management and inertia, Reddit might just be able to out-innovate and out-compete anyone else and keep its current position.

rodgerd 11y ago
> cared about its community and free speech I'm sure we're all weeping over the demise of /r/coontown and other Stormfront-affiliated subreddits. What a sad loss, and what a valuable group of users to alienate!
- hugh4 11y ago
  If you want to say something, say it. Don't say the opposite in a sarcastic tone.
  - rodgerd 11y ago
    I thought we loved free speech. Why are you opressing me?
  - pjc50 11y ago
    So you're in favour of all forms of free speech except sarcasm? Edit: ok, evidently jokes aren't a popular mode of speech either.
    - tdylan 11y ago
      This isn't about surpressing free speech. It's about basic communication and debate.
      - 11y ago

codingdave 11y ago

I think reddit has the potential to turn into something really worthwhile, if they let it. But my personal opinion is they need to let the current culture go, and think more about what they want this site to be in 5 years, 10 years, 50 years. What is their vision for social communications for the short, mid, and long-term future? Is it superficial communications and small discussions around niche interests? Or is more like the discussion boards as they existed, for example, in Ender's game, where where leaders of the world have serious talks about policy, politics, and philosophy, and invoke real change? I mention the Ender's game boards specifically because it seems so easy to start to transition reddit towards something like that. Make karma worth something. Have karma split into types for entertainment vs. insightful commentary, and earn your way onto "serious" boards. Let the current site just be the starting point, but build a new tier above it, of more serious talk. Build your way up into a multi-faceted communication tool that can be taken seriously by all levels of society, while still leaving the light-hearted, superficial nature of its current culture intact for those who want it. I have no idea what the reddit leadership desires... I am sure there are 1000 other directions it can be taken. But they need to pick a direction and start going there. Because right now, the site is growing in numbers, but stagnating by all other metrics.

36erhefg 11y ago
What we're missing is a serious change in mentality. Internet Points/Karma and a different UI won't change that. We already have all the technology for such discussions, but no one is interested. The closest thing to serious public political discussions is happening in the House and Senate floor debates, or whatever is equivalent in your country, and nobody watches that.
- pjc50 11y ago
  Ironically if you watch UK Prime Minister's Questions it consists primarily of point-scoring and jeering, with occasional excursions into triviality. On occasion in Parliament you will find people delivering impassioned, carefully researched speeches .. to an empty room. The prerequisite for discussion has to be willingness to listen and finding a commonality of view, both of which are in very short supply these days.

lumberjack 11y ago

Reddit has just grown too big and important. Neither the links nor the discussions feel genuine anymore. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. I wonder what will replace it. And of course I'm talking about the popular subreddits mostly concerning news and politics. Subreddits about classical music and such, still work fine. However any political subreddit seems compromised in some form or another.

ChuckFrank 11y ago

When we applied to YC, Steve was nice enough to meet with us at Hipmunk, and as with what he did there, I think he's going to do a great job at Reddit, where I've become an increasingly invested participant, once I learned how to dig deeper into the subreddits, such as /r/oakland or /r/vandwellers etc. I think, based upon my experience on the site, compared to those on fb and elsewhere, that Reddit continues to have incredible growth opportunities, because there are hundreds, nay thousands, of subreddits that we can't even imagine, people will create, once people discover their power, like /r/camelracing or /r/swatvalley, or who knows what. 10 years from now, I think Reddit will be (one of) the biggest site on the whole of the internet. And if not Reddit, than its many copy cats. I just wish there was some way that I could help, aside from what little moderating I do.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
tdobson 11y ago
/r/vandwellers represent! :D

JanneVee 11y ago

Reddits problem is not the small communities people barely know that they exist until someone points them out. It is the shift in attitude in the bigger communities. I can spend hours finding specific examples but the gist of it is becoming more US-centric and "nerd dismissing" place by the day.

ChuckFrank 11y ago

Terrible reporting. I dug into those unsavory subreddits, and a huge number of them were mostly inactive, with hardly a posting for the last couple of years, and otherwise, like the fashion police one, they are hardly like what was described. I'm tired of this 'look how bad reddit is' reporting. It's boring and inaccurate.

snorrah 11y ago

Does reddit have funding issues currently? I ask because subjectively I've started getting more and more "too busy" HTTP 503's while browsing, which hints at a lack of capacity but surely that could be scaled out fairly easily if financies permit?

odiroot 11y ago

How do we save Reddit from the people who aggressively try to change it?