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Giant disclaimer: I work at StackStorm...but I also have an extensive Ops background. This is really the next step in runbook automation. It gives users a way

Giant disclaimer: I work at StackStorm...but I also have an extensive Ops background. This is really the next step in runbook automation. It gives users a way to express procedures and operational patterns in code (the workflow definitions are in yaml). With any sort of automated remediation there is always the concern of "painting over the mold" but at the same time you don't want to get stuck doing a large number of manual steps when you could be focusing your energy on tracking down the root cause of the issue and resolving that. The more important aspect to me personally is the easy of version controlling these ops patterns. Store the workflow definitions in source control and it is easy to diff the changes in your procedure.

mst 11y ago
It seems YAML is the new S-expressions for people trying to pretend they didn't actually invent a programming language. This is, I guess, less annoying than executable XML.
- doriftoshoes 11y ago
  YAML is definitely the hotness right now but it works. No need to invent a full blown language for something like this. Way easier than trying to write json.
  - mst 11y ago
    > Way easier than trying to write json. Which is why ingy and I invented http://p3rl.org/JSONY http://p3rl.org/JSONY for config files.
  - eropple 11y ago
    Or you can use Ruby or Python and Perl and have a scripting language that looks and acts as a scripting language is generally expected to look and act. (And with Ruby in particular it's very easy to provide a flexible and terse DSL that provides significant benefits on its own.) This "invent your own worse programming language" fad is disappointing.
    - mst 11y ago
      For plain config, I mostly use JSONY now. For executable declarationish things, I like Tcl (usually embedded in perl so I can use Moo(se) for OO rather than the inferior crap in other languages). Hashicorp's HCL is an interesting middle ground.
      - eropple 11y ago
        I can respect Tcl. I'm not super familiar with it aside from hacking on eggdrop, but it's in the same ballpark. For configuration, I just source a shell script and grab env vars wherever I can. It's the most portable (between applications, not necessarily between platforms) option available to me and plays nicely with stuff like jails. At a glance, I don't quite understand the value prop of JSONY over YAML, which (as you see used in something like Rails) allows for a good bit of flexibility with references to more tersely communicate intent. I think HCL is one of the worse decisions made by a somewhat influential software company in quite some time. It's harder to use than YAML (which is funny because the stated reason for its existence is "YAML is harder", and it makes me really, really curious what sort of users they're polling) while being less expressive and they're very careful to not really care about anybody's interop "because you can just use JSON instead", except that, as trying to work with Terraform amply proved, no, you can't use JSON, because that path isn't tested because nobody cares and unit tests are hard. =( HCL is a regular problem in my life. I needed to vent a little.
        crdoconnor 11y ago
        >for configuration, I just source a shell script and grab env vars wherever I can. That can cause you headaches when you want to store lists or associative data in your config.
    - kentonv 11y ago
      > This "invent your own worse programming language" fad is disappointing. Fad? This has been a common anti-pattern basically since the dawn of computing. :)
  - zobzu 11y ago
    not sure how yaml is easier than json also not sure how yaml is easier than python or what not
    - lnkmails 11y ago
      StackStorm developer here! Just to clarify, YAML is one way to write the workflow spec. Just like how YAML is way to write docker compose file. We picked YAML over JSON because it is less verbose and allows one to add comments which is pretty useful if someone is looking at a remediation workflow early in the AM. We do use YAQL expressions for some variable manipulation but that is not a YAML spec. A workflow is a collection of actions and actions can be written in almost any language (as a script) or python (first class actions). So you can think YAML workflow as a declarative spec rather than a programming language. Maybe that helps?
crdoconnor 11y ago
Some nice readable example YAML definitions would be good to show on the README.

mst 11y ago

It seems YAML is the new S-expressions for people trying to pretend they didn't actually invent a programming language. This is, I guess, less annoying than executable XML.

doriftoshoes 11y ago
YAML is definitely the hotness right now but it works. No need to invent a full blown language for something like this. Way easier than trying to write json.
- mst 11y ago
  > Way easier than trying to write json. Which is why ingy and I invented http://p3rl.org/JSONY http://p3rl.org/JSONY for config files.
- eropple 11y ago
  Or you can use Ruby or Python and Perl and have a scripting language that looks and acts as a scripting language is generally expected to look and act. (And with Ruby in particular it's very easy to provide a flexible and terse DSL that provides significant benefits on its own.) This "invent your own worse programming language" fad is disappointing.
  - mst 11y ago
    For plain config, I mostly use JSONY now. For executable declarationish things, I like Tcl (usually embedded in perl so I can use Moo(se) for OO rather than the inferior crap in other languages). Hashicorp's HCL is an interesting middle ground.
    - eropple 11y ago
      I can respect Tcl. I'm not super familiar with it aside from hacking on eggdrop, but it's in the same ballpark. For configuration, I just source a shell script and grab env vars wherever I can. It's the most portable (between applications, not necessarily between platforms) option available to me and plays nicely with stuff like jails. At a glance, I don't quite understand the value prop of JSONY over YAML, which (as you see used in something like Rails) allows for a good bit of flexibility with references to more tersely communicate intent. I think HCL is one of the worse decisions made by a somewhat influential software company in quite some time. It's harder to use than YAML (which is funny because the stated reason for its existence is "YAML is harder", and it makes me really, really curious what sort of users they're polling) while being less expressive and they're very careful to not really care about anybody's interop "because you can just use JSON instead", except that, as trying to work with Terraform amply proved, no, you can't use JSON, because that path isn't tested because nobody cares and unit tests are hard. =( HCL is a regular problem in my life. I needed to vent a little.
      - crdoconnor 11y ago
        >for configuration, I just source a shell script and grab env vars wherever I can. That can cause you headaches when you want to store lists or associative data in your config.
  - kentonv 11y ago
    > This "invent your own worse programming language" fad is disappointing. Fad? This has been a common anti-pattern basically since the dawn of computing. :)
- zobzu 11y ago
  not sure how yaml is easier than json also not sure how yaml is easier than python or what not
  - lnkmails 11y ago
    StackStorm developer here! Just to clarify, YAML is one way to write the workflow spec. Just like how YAML is way to write docker compose file. We picked YAML over JSON because it is less verbose and allows one to add comments which is pretty useful if someone is looking at a remediation workflow early in the AM. We do use YAQL expressions for some variable manipulation but that is not a YAML spec. A workflow is a collection of actions and actions can be written in almost any language (as a script) or python (first class actions). So you can think YAML workflow as a declarative spec rather than a programming language. Maybe that helps?

crdoconnor 11y ago

Some nice readable example YAML definitions would be good to show on the README.