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It's worth questioning for sure, but at the same time it's easy to misunderstand Aikido. "opponents playing along" is half-accurate. In Aikido you spend most o

It's worth questioning for sure, but at the same time it's easy to misunderstand Aikido. "opponents playing along" is half-accurate. In Aikido you spend most of your time practicing techniques with a partner, and they do not play the role of an uncooperative opponent for two specific reasons: 1. The goal of Aikido is to, through repetition, build muscle-memory of very specific techniques. These are very different types of techniques than what you'll find in say, karate, where it's basically kicking and punching. These techniques are designed to disable your opponent while minimizing harm. Aikido is also not about kicking and punching, it's about responding to kicks and punches (attacks). There is simply no way to build that muscle memory other than by having repetition with a cooperative partner. To outsiders this may seem like opponents that merely "play along" with your attacks, but that is ultimately a misunderstanding of what's going on. 2. These techniques are painful if you don't cooperate. The reason the "opponent" seems to be "playing along" is because they have to do this over and over for the length of the class session. If you're a poor Uke (the opponent) and are uncooperative, you will end up missing most of your classes due to injuries. A good Uke will be uncooperative to the extent that it helps Nage (the person practicing the technique) learn the technique without seriously injuring themselves.

atom-morgan 11y ago
I don't think the issue of building muscle-memory is exclusive to Aikido. It's a part of nearly any physical activity. Why do you think a martial art such as Aikido is nearly non-existent at the highest level of competition such as the UFC?
- Riseed 11y ago
  Aikidoka have no place in UFC because it goes against the whole spirit of the art: harmony, self defense, non-competition. Regardless, Aikido techniques (i.e. joint manipulation) violate the rules of the UFC. http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations
  - scott_s 11y ago
    The difficulty with that claim is that it's circular, and it makes it untestable: the effectiveness of Aikido cannot be tested because testing the effectiveness of Aikido goes against the spirit of Aikido.
    - Riseed 11y ago
      Not exactly. The question was "Why do you think...?" "Spirit of Aikido" was my thoughts, a conjecture, not a claim as spokesperson on behalf of the Aikido community. :) To rephrase what I said before: If a high-ranking Aikidoka wants to play UFC, they're certainly free to do so. However, I think none have done so because it goes against the spirit of Aikido. (e.g. people attracted to Aikido are not those attracted to UFC, Aikidoka UFC fans don't associate Aikido with UFC)
      - scott_s 11y ago
        I've seen others express the same sentiment. Your explanation may be true, but I think a parallel explanation is also probably true: they are unprepared for a fight with a skilled opponent.
        Riseed 11y ago
        I agree that "unprepared for a fight with a skilled opponent" is true for many Aikidoka (perhaps they are more self-aware of their limitations than students of other arts?), but it's also true of Cat Zingano ;)
        scott_s 11y ago
        I know you're making a joke, but I don't think it works: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_Zingano#Mixed_martial_arts_record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_Zingano#Mixed_martial_arts...
        Riseed 11y ago
- rcurry 11y ago
  "Why do you think a martial art such as Aikido is nearly non-existent at the highest level of competition such as the UFC?" Because it falls within the realm of "grab my wrist... no, the other wrist..." type martial arts which are simply not effective in a real fight.
  - kaybe 11y ago
    Those techniques are for armed fights where you cannot afford to let the other person wield their knife/sword freely. (It also shows you how to get rid of people trying to stop you from using your knife.) As training, they teach you the basics. You can do it without the grabbing, and you can do the grabbing if you want to throw too, it's just far harder.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
- Floegipoky 11y ago
  Simple- Aikido is very difficult to use effectively against a trained striking opponent, even harder to use against someone not wearing a gi, and almost impossible to use against someone not wearing a gi who is also drenched in sweat.
Nadya 11y ago
The same can be said about wrestling. Many take-downs are practiced against people who will, quite literally, throw their weight a little early to help the takedown. Why? Because it hurts like hell not to! The single leg sweep is one of the most basic takedowns taught: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vyuf2Ji3ZM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vyuf2Ji3ZM Fact of the matter is: you cannot resist this. You will fall. Resisting will twist your leg sideways putting strain on your knee. That hurts like hell. Once it hurts, you'll allow yourself to fall. You learn very quickly to not resist at all and to fall before the pain happens. This can look a lot like "throwing yourself" instead of being "taken down" and that's because, to some degree, it is. But in practice - you'd be able to take down anyone like this (so long as you have the strength to raise their leg). While you wouldn't be using wrestling moves in an actual fight (at least, most of them...) - they will all effectively take down an opponent. The same can be said about Aikido. In practice, it looks impractical and "likely wouldn't work". In reality - your opponents will be taken out. Now the practicality of the moves is something to be question. In an actual fight, chances are you'd be unable to perform a single leg sweep with someone pounding the back of your head in or kneeing you in the face when you put your head so conveniently near their knee. But if you got into that position - you'd easily have your opponent on the ground. Which is where you want them. That is where Aikido is being criticized. To get into a position for many of the takedowns is impractical.
- rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
  Learning how to fall is just as important as any other aspects of learning how to fight. It's the difference between rolling into a defensive stance and falling flat on your back and absorbing the last of the impact with the back of your head.
- atom-morgan 11y ago
  Yes you're right. The same can be said about wrestling. You do give a bit to avoid injury. However, there's a huge difference between wrestling and Aikido in practice. Watch Division 1 wrestling and you see guys really going at it. It's brutal stuff. Meanwhile every single Aikido video I've seen looks like it's a choreographed set of moves for a movie.
saint_fiasco 11y ago
>These techniques are designed to disable your opponent while minimizing harm. >These techniques are painful if you don't cooperate Then how are you supposed to minimize harm? Your real-life opponents are unlikely to know Aikido, so they won't know that they should cooperate.
- itistoday2 11y ago
  Minimizing harm does not mean not causing pain. With the help of Uke, the idea is that through years of repetition you'll learn how to respond correctly in a way that disables Uke while minimizing harm. It's the difference between: do I punch you in the face and break your nose to disable you, versus, do I respond to an attack coming from you in a way that you find yourself suddenly on the floor, incapable of moving.
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  I can't speak to Aikido specifically, but a comment on this: > Then how are you supposed to minimize harm? Your real-life opponents are unlikely to know Aikido, so they won't know that they should cooperate. [emphasis added] In relation to this: >> These techniques are painful if you don't cooperate [emphasis added] Pain and harm are distinct things. Something is painful because signals are going from a point of the body (caused by pressure, heat, twisting, something) to nerves to your brain. Someone can cause you pain by twisting your arm, and it may be excruciating, but won't actually cause you (physical) harm so long as they don't cross a critical threshold. This is how many submission holds work, in fact. Ever had someone grab your arm and hold it behind your back? If they really go too far they may injure your elbow or shoulder, but they don't have to take it anywhere near that point to cause you enough pain to cry uncle.
scott_s 11y ago
I think that any "martial art", to have transfer to anything like a real fight, has to incorporate live sparring. I do Brazilian jiu jitsu, and we also have "technique" periods where we have a cooperating opponent. But that's just for getting the movement and ideas. It's only when you can do something during live sparring that you actually know it, and can realistically reproduce it in anything like a real fight.

atom-morgan 11y ago

I don't think the issue of building muscle-memory is exclusive to Aikido. It's a part of nearly any physical activity. Why do you think a martial art such as Aikido is nearly non-existent at the highest level of competition such as the UFC?

Riseed 11y ago
Aikidoka have no place in UFC because it goes against the whole spirit of the art: harmony, self defense, non-competition. Regardless, Aikido techniques (i.e. joint manipulation) violate the rules of the UFC. http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations http://www.ufc.com/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations
- scott_s 11y ago
  The difficulty with that claim is that it's circular, and it makes it untestable: the effectiveness of Aikido cannot be tested because testing the effectiveness of Aikido goes against the spirit of Aikido.
  - Riseed 11y ago
    Not exactly. The question was "Why do you think...?" "Spirit of Aikido" was my thoughts, a conjecture, not a claim as spokesperson on behalf of the Aikido community. :) To rephrase what I said before: If a high-ranking Aikidoka wants to play UFC, they're certainly free to do so. However, I think none have done so because it goes against the spirit of Aikido. (e.g. people attracted to Aikido are not those attracted to UFC, Aikidoka UFC fans don't associate Aikido with UFC)
    - scott_s 11y ago
      I've seen others express the same sentiment. Your explanation may be true, but I think a parallel explanation is also probably true: they are unprepared for a fight with a skilled opponent.
      - Riseed 11y ago
        I agree that "unprepared for a fight with a skilled opponent" is true for many Aikidoka (perhaps they are more self-aware of their limitations than students of other arts?), but it's also true of Cat Zingano ;)
        scott_s 11y ago
        I know you're making a joke, but I don't think it works: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_Zingano#Mixed_martial_arts_record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_Zingano#Mixed_martial_arts...
        Riseed 11y ago
rcurry 11y ago
"Why do you think a martial art such as Aikido is nearly non-existent at the highest level of competition such as the UFC?" Because it falls within the realm of "grab my wrist... no, the other wrist..." type martial arts which are simply not effective in a real fight.
- kaybe 11y ago
  Those techniques are for armed fights where you cannot afford to let the other person wield their knife/sword freely. (It also shows you how to get rid of people trying to stop you from using your knife.) As training, they teach you the basics. You can do it without the grabbing, and you can do the grabbing if you want to throw too, it's just far harder.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
Floegipoky 11y ago
Simple- Aikido is very difficult to use effectively against a trained striking opponent, even harder to use against someone not wearing a gi, and almost impossible to use against someone not wearing a gi who is also drenched in sweat.

Nadya 11y ago

The same can be said about wrestling. Many take-downs are practiced against people who will, quite literally, throw their weight a little early to help the takedown. Why? Because it hurts like hell not to! The single leg sweep is one of the most basic takedowns taught: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vyuf2Ji3ZM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vyuf2Ji3ZM Fact of the matter is: you cannot resist this. You will fall. Resisting will twist your leg sideways putting strain on your knee. That hurts like hell. Once it hurts, you'll allow yourself to fall. You learn very quickly to not resist at all and to fall before the pain happens. This can look a lot like "throwing yourself" instead of being "taken down" and that's because, to some degree, it is. But in practice - you'd be able to take down anyone like this (so long as you have the strength to raise their leg). While you wouldn't be using wrestling moves in an actual fight (at least, most of them...) - they will all effectively take down an opponent. The same can be said about Aikido. In practice, it looks impractical and "likely wouldn't work". In reality - your opponents will be taken out. Now the practicality of the moves is something to be question. In an actual fight, chances are you'd be unable to perform a single leg sweep with someone pounding the back of your head in or kneeing you in the face when you put your head so conveniently near their knee. But if you got into that position - you'd easily have your opponent on the ground. Which is where you want them. That is where Aikido is being criticized. To get into a position for many of the takedowns is impractical.

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
Learning how to fall is just as important as any other aspects of learning how to fight. It's the difference between rolling into a defensive stance and falling flat on your back and absorbing the last of the impact with the back of your head.
atom-morgan 11y ago
Yes you're right. The same can be said about wrestling. You do give a bit to avoid injury. However, there's a huge difference between wrestling and Aikido in practice. Watch Division 1 wrestling and you see guys really going at it. It's brutal stuff. Meanwhile every single Aikido video I've seen looks like it's a choreographed set of moves for a movie.

saint_fiasco 11y ago

>These techniques are designed to disable your opponent while minimizing harm. >These techniques are painful if you don't cooperate Then how are you supposed to minimize harm? Your real-life opponents are unlikely to know Aikido, so they won't know that they should cooperate.

itistoday2 11y ago
Minimizing harm does not mean not causing pain. With the help of Uke, the idea is that through years of repetition you'll learn how to respond correctly in a way that disables Uke while minimizing harm. It's the difference between: do I punch you in the face and break your nose to disable you, versus, do I respond to an attack coming from you in a way that you find yourself suddenly on the floor, incapable of moving.
Jtsummers 11y ago
I can't speak to Aikido specifically, but a comment on this: > Then how are you supposed to minimize harm? Your real-life opponents are unlikely to know Aikido, so they won't know that they should cooperate. [emphasis added] In relation to this: >> These techniques are painful if you don't cooperate [emphasis added] Pain and harm are distinct things. Something is painful because signals are going from a point of the body (caused by pressure, heat, twisting, something) to nerves to your brain. Someone can cause you pain by twisting your arm, and it may be excruciating, but won't actually cause you (physical) harm so long as they don't cross a critical threshold. This is how many submission holds work, in fact. Ever had someone grab your arm and hold it behind your back? If they really go too far they may injure your elbow or shoulder, but they don't have to take it anywhere near that point to cause you enough pain to cry uncle.

scott_s 11y ago

I think that any "martial art", to have transfer to anything like a real fight, has to incorporate live sparring. I do Brazilian jiu jitsu, and we also have "technique" periods where we have a cooperating opponent. But that's just for getting the movement and ideas. It's only when you can do something during live sparring that you actually know it, and can realistically reproduce it in anything like a real fight.