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The end result may become a Balkanized internet - you can't share anything outside your country's borders or access them from outside. Each country winds up as

The end result may become a Balkanized internet - you can't share anything outside your country's borders or access them from outside. Each country winds up as a China, a government's dream situation. In the end though we all lose.

kawera 11y ago
Not necessarily Balkanized if we concentrate our efforts in developing better protocols and not larger centralized platforms. Decentralization is key to internet freedom.
- the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
  Not sure what you are proposing. This is not really something we can improve as nature works against us. Unless someone finds a wormhole for data, we will be bound by latency and thus the only solution is user segregation.
  - kuschku 11y ago
    Or one can use distributed protocols like XMPP. I can send messages just fine from @jabber.de to someone on a US server.
    - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
      Message delivery is not a problem that needs solving. You don't even need XMPP for that, good old sockets do the trick. The problem is that you need to fetch data over high latency network links and you are not even allowed to cache it due to legal reasons.
      - kuschku 11y ago
        Eh, what? The EU data privacy laws have a specific paragraph directly and specifically declaring that caching is exempt. You can even use worldwide cloudflare caching for your site, and store userdata in the EU, and still comply.
        the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
        > Eh, what? The EU data privacy laws have a specific paragraph directly and specifically declaring that caching is exempt. That works for actual short lived caching, but not for database replication which is what you would actually need for services like facebook. //EDIT: also the directive does not actually mention caching directly, it just mentions various exceptions of the rule. Can I have a reference to what you mean exactly?
        kuschku 11y ago
        I can’t find the specific exception anymore, and Google is only delivering articles about today, so I’m sorry (and at any Googlers reading this: Fix your damn algorithms, or at least give us the ability to search the same way as in early 2013! I’m less bothered by spam domains than by getting only buzzfeed etc instead of actual documentation) Back to topic: Database replication is forbidden, yes. So, well, host your data in the EU for now, and hope that the US finally comes to senses regarding spying. Same applies to GCHQ and BND
        magicalist 11y ago
        > Google is only delivering articles about today, so I’m sorry only three of my top links are from today if I search something like "EU safe harbor caching" and even fewer for searches that omit "safe harbor" and search for data protection (which gets you the actual directives as the first hit). Regardless, your problem is solved easily with Search Tools -> Any Time -> Custom range...
        kuschku 11y ago
        Well, that search tool stuff still doesn’t give me any proper links, and with the way Google results are customized nowadays, it’s not really comparable anymore anyway. Anyway, database replication is nothing that is supposed to be exempt from data privacy laws anyway. You’ll have to deal with it somehow without giving my data into the hands of a US entity.
        11y ago
- debacle 11y ago
  The Internet runs off of VC money and there's no investment opportunities in decentralized protocols. People actually paying for the services they use is key to Internet freedom.
  - kuschku 11y ago
    VC money is probably the biggest investment bubble since 2006. A dotCom 2.0; I’m just waiting for it to burst.
    - deciplex 11y ago
      It's not really a dotcom 2.0 until your parents' retirement is heavily dependent on unicorn valuations. If the "bubble" were to burst now the implications for the broader economy are nothing like what they were 15 years ago.
      - kuschku 11y ago
        Well, that issue luckily never happened in Germany anyway (our retirement isn’t in funds, but it’s a rollover system). But the general economy would still have issues, startups are one of the few things in the US still running profit right now.
junto 11y ago
Not necessarily. The privacy rules protect personal data of EU citizens. You can share as many cat pictures as you want without safe harbour. However share my name, contacts, address and date of birth in the US and by proxy then share it with the NSA, then thanks but no thanks.

kawera 11y ago

Not necessarily Balkanized if we concentrate our efforts in developing better protocols and not larger centralized platforms. Decentralization is key to internet freedom.

the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
Not sure what you are proposing. This is not really something we can improve as nature works against us. Unless someone finds a wormhole for data, we will be bound by latency and thus the only solution is user segregation.
- kuschku 11y ago
  Or one can use distributed protocols like XMPP. I can send messages just fine from @jabber.de to someone on a US server.
  - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
    Message delivery is not a problem that needs solving. You don't even need XMPP for that, good old sockets do the trick. The problem is that you need to fetch data over high latency network links and you are not even allowed to cache it due to legal reasons.
    - kuschku 11y ago
      Eh, what? The EU data privacy laws have a specific paragraph directly and specifically declaring that caching is exempt. You can even use worldwide cloudflare caching for your site, and store userdata in the EU, and still comply.
      - the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
        > Eh, what? The EU data privacy laws have a specific paragraph directly and specifically declaring that caching is exempt. That works for actual short lived caching, but not for database replication which is what you would actually need for services like facebook. //EDIT: also the directive does not actually mention caching directly, it just mentions various exceptions of the rule. Can I have a reference to what you mean exactly?
        kuschku 11y ago
        I can’t find the specific exception anymore, and Google is only delivering articles about today, so I’m sorry (and at any Googlers reading this: Fix your damn algorithms, or at least give us the ability to search the same way as in early 2013! I’m less bothered by spam domains than by getting only buzzfeed etc instead of actual documentation) Back to topic: Database replication is forbidden, yes. So, well, host your data in the EU for now, and hope that the US finally comes to senses regarding spying. Same applies to GCHQ and BND
        magicalist 11y ago
        > Google is only delivering articles about today, so I’m sorry only three of my top links are from today if I search something like "EU safe harbor caching" and even fewer for searches that omit "safe harbor" and search for data protection (which gets you the actual directives as the first hit). Regardless, your problem is solved easily with Search Tools -> Any Time -> Custom range...
        kuschku 11y ago
        Well, that search tool stuff still doesn’t give me any proper links, and with the way Google results are customized nowadays, it’s not really comparable anymore anyway. Anyway, database replication is nothing that is supposed to be exempt from data privacy laws anyway. You’ll have to deal with it somehow without giving my data into the hands of a US entity.
        11y ago
debacle 11y ago
The Internet runs off of VC money and there's no investment opportunities in decentralized protocols. People actually paying for the services they use is key to Internet freedom.
- kuschku 11y ago
  VC money is probably the biggest investment bubble since 2006. A dotCom 2.0; I’m just waiting for it to burst.
  - deciplex 11y ago
    It's not really a dotcom 2.0 until your parents' retirement is heavily dependent on unicorn valuations. If the "bubble" were to burst now the implications for the broader economy are nothing like what they were 15 years ago.
    - kuschku 11y ago
      Well, that issue luckily never happened in Germany anyway (our retirement isn’t in funds, but it’s a rollover system). But the general economy would still have issues, startups are one of the few things in the US still running profit right now.

junto 11y ago

Not necessarily. The privacy rules protect personal data of EU citizens. You can share as many cat pictures as you want without safe harbour. However share my name, contacts, address and date of birth in the US and by proxy then share it with the NSA, then thanks but no thanks.