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No, this is terrible. These countries are demanding we run our services in their countries. This is a money grab. Note that these same countries expect the U

No, this is terrible. These countries are demanding we run our services in their countries. This is a money grab. Note that these same countries expect the United States to act as World Police, and do not contribute as much money as they should. They want the US to know about attacks ahead of time. I wonder how the US could possibly know about attacks ahead of time? I deplore mass surveillance. I really do. But I think wiretapping with a warrant is a necessary tool for fighting crime, and terror, and bad state actors. There's a part of me that desperately hopes all major internet services just shut off Europe entirely. Welcome back to the Stone Age.

tljr 11y ago
"Note that these same countries expect the United States to act as World Police". Nobody (except some Americans) want this. "I deplore mass surveillance. I really do. But I think wiretapping with a warrant is a necessary tool for fighting crime, and terror, and bad state actors." I hate X but Y is necessary (because I said so) so let's do X anyway. "There's a part of me that desperately hopes all major internet services just shut off Europe entirely. Welcome back to the Stone Age." If by stone age, you mean 2006, great.
the-dude 11y ago
> Note that these same countries expect the United States > to act as World Police, Why do you think that? And how about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_United_Nations#The_U.S._arrears_issue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_United_N... I am actually appalled the Netherlands actually contributed to your shitty conflicts.
- VikingCoder 11y ago
  Wow a billion dollars. That would pay for about 60 seconds of the war against the Taliban.
  - the-dude 11y ago
    Why do you want to wage war with the Taliban?
flatline 11y ago
The US finds out about attacks ahead of time the same way we always have: through intelligence operations, not data mining. I don't think anyone is saying that targeted, legal wire tapping is somehow off-limits now. I don't see how this would impact the ability of a company to assist the authorities in monitoring individuals' communications, either - it will, possibly, make it more difficult for the NSA to do a blanket gathering of foreign communications, which I believe is the point. Large service providers like Google and Amazon can and will comply with the laws. It is possible that social media start-ups will be unable to operate across borders due to regulations, but this will hardly be a staggering setback to the European populace's ability to share photos of their food. I doubt there are any real implications for things like freedom of speech/expression: these types of services are already effectively illegal in places with heavily authoritarian governments.
- VikingCoder 11y ago
  Congratulations. We just broke the INTERNET part of the internet. Only large service providers will be able to comply with all of the laws. Why are we patting ourselves on the backs for this?
  - icebraining 11y ago
    Only large service providers will be able to comply with all of the laws. Why, exactly? And what are "all of the laws"? The data protection directive is not that complicated or onerous, and besides, you can avoid it wholesale: just don't store personal data.
- Niten 11y ago
  > It is possible that social media start-ups will be unable to operate across borders due to regulations, but this will hardly be a staggering setback to the European populace's ability to share photos of their food. There will be services that have not yet been invented. We cannot presume to know what they'll look like, but there's a big chance the startups that invent them will be harmed by this ruling. No, big services run by established players will not die, but that's hardly the point.
pjc50 11y ago
Wiretapping with a warrant is not obstructed by this, of course: it might require a bit of crossborder co-operation to get an EU warrant for the data of an EU national, but it's still possible to tap a specific user for law enforcement purposes. What's not legal is warantless universal wiretapping. (Also, I don't want the US to be "world police"! Like US domestic police they are far too trigger-happy. And the US is one of the few countries not signed up to the International Criminal Court. Would you want a police without a court?)
- VikingCoder 11y ago
  Crossborder co-operation? Great! They hand over Roman Polanski, and we're off to a good start. > What's not legal is warantless universal wiretapping. So punish the government of the United States - not the businesses. > Would you want a police without a court? That's called "a military." And yes, I want a military. And since our enemies don't bother to dress up in bright-colored uniforms, and stand in a row in a field anymore, our military needs to be a lot more nimble. And since our international efforts (the UN) are often blocked by one or two security council members, I'm not impressed with the UN's ability to keep the peace.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    our military needs to be a lot more nimble Move fast, blow up hospitals? But I'm glad you accepted that the US is not a police service (ie legally accountable to the policed, following due process) but a military (ie an occupying force that executes people at will). The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are wars of choice by the US, and the end result has been a total destabilisation and millions of people killed or made refugees.
    - jcranmer 11y ago
      And the failure to intervene in Syria or Ukraine prevented a total destabilization and millions of refugees. Wait...
      - 11y ago
jacquesm 11y ago
> This is a money grab. No, it really isn't. It won't be effective but the judge here is not aiming for EU companies to earn more money. > There's a part of me that desperately hopes all major internet services just shut off Europe entirely. Welcome back to the Stone Age. Economies have becomes so intertwined that shutting Europe 'off the internet' by any other party (presumably the US or the rest of the world) is no longer feasible. It will backfire tremendously on those doing the shutting off. Besides that, you wouldn't really shut the internet down, merely split it. Even North Korea has internet access.
- VikingCoder 11y ago
  Have you looked at prices for data centers in Europe versus the US? Or their incompetence? > Economies have becomes so intertwined that shutting Europe 'off the internet' by any other party BS. Google shut off China. Independent companies are free to not do business anywhere the laws are stifling. I think it would be awesome if they did it all at once. Internet Blackout for Europe.
  - jarek 11y ago
    Maybe Spotify can go first. Then CERN can limit its "web sites" to only work from within its member states
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      What does CERN have to do with Spotify and EU member states?
      - jarek 11y ago
        I'm mocking the idea of an Internet (though I rather suspect VikingCoder meant HTTP) Blackout for Europe by pointing out European HTTP services.
        VikingCoder 11y ago
tobltobs 11y ago
World police? World arsonist would describe it better.
dang 11y ago
We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10337519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10337519 and marked it off-topic.
- VikingCoder 11y ago
  I appreciate your efforts to make Hacker News great, but I think this action is heavy-handed. The court's decision hurts the internet, hurts small companies on the internet, and hurts the ability of the United States to fight terrorism. I may not have worded this opinion particularly well, but it's ridiculous that my comment cannot even be expressed.
  - dang 11y ago
    It can still be expressed, of course. It's just that it wasn't particularly a reply to its parent and took the discussion on a generic tangent (U.S. = world police) that is also a classic flamewar topic. We don't kill such subthreads, but we do move them. I can understand why you don't see it that way and wouldn't claim that our decisions are all obvious or all correct. They're imprecise judgment calls.
    - VikingCoder 11y ago
      I really appreciate your response.

tljr 11y ago

"Note that these same countries expect the United States to act as World Police". Nobody (except some Americans) want this. "I deplore mass surveillance. I really do. But I think wiretapping with a warrant is a necessary tool for fighting crime, and terror, and bad state actors." I hate X but Y is necessary (because I said so) so let's do X anyway. "There's a part of me that desperately hopes all major internet services just shut off Europe entirely. Welcome back to the Stone Age." If by stone age, you mean 2006, great.

the-dude 11y ago

> Note that these same countries expect the United States > to act as World Police, Why do you think that? And how about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_United_Nations#The_U.S._arrears_issue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_United_N... I am actually appalled the Netherlands actually contributed to your shitty conflicts.

VikingCoder 11y ago
Wow a billion dollars. That would pay for about 60 seconds of the war against the Taliban.
- the-dude 11y ago
  Why do you want to wage war with the Taliban?

flatline 11y ago

The US finds out about attacks ahead of time the same way we always have: through intelligence operations, not data mining. I don't think anyone is saying that targeted, legal wire tapping is somehow off-limits now. I don't see how this would impact the ability of a company to assist the authorities in monitoring individuals' communications, either - it will, possibly, make it more difficult for the NSA to do a blanket gathering of foreign communications, which I believe is the point. Large service providers like Google and Amazon can and will comply with the laws. It is possible that social media start-ups will be unable to operate across borders due to regulations, but this will hardly be a staggering setback to the European populace's ability to share photos of their food. I doubt there are any real implications for things like freedom of speech/expression: these types of services are already effectively illegal in places with heavily authoritarian governments.

VikingCoder 11y ago
Congratulations. We just broke the INTERNET part of the internet. Only large service providers will be able to comply with all of the laws. Why are we patting ourselves on the backs for this?
- icebraining 11y ago
  Only large service providers will be able to comply with all of the laws. Why, exactly? And what are "all of the laws"? The data protection directive is not that complicated or onerous, and besides, you can avoid it wholesale: just don't store personal data.
Niten 11y ago
> It is possible that social media start-ups will be unable to operate across borders due to regulations, but this will hardly be a staggering setback to the European populace's ability to share photos of their food. There will be services that have not yet been invented. We cannot presume to know what they'll look like, but there's a big chance the startups that invent them will be harmed by this ruling. No, big services run by established players will not die, but that's hardly the point.

pjc50 11y ago

Wiretapping with a warrant is not obstructed by this, of course: it might require a bit of crossborder co-operation to get an EU warrant for the data of an EU national, but it's still possible to tap a specific user for law enforcement purposes. What's not legal is warantless universal wiretapping. (Also, I don't want the US to be "world police"! Like US domestic police they are far too trigger-happy. And the US is one of the few countries not signed up to the International Criminal Court. Would you want a police without a court?)

VikingCoder 11y ago
Crossborder co-operation? Great! They hand over Roman Polanski, and we're off to a good start. > What's not legal is warantless universal wiretapping. So punish the government of the United States - not the businesses. > Would you want a police without a court? That's called "a military." And yes, I want a military. And since our enemies don't bother to dress up in bright-colored uniforms, and stand in a row in a field anymore, our military needs to be a lot more nimble. And since our international efforts (the UN) are often blocked by one or two security council members, I'm not impressed with the UN's ability to keep the peace.
- pjc50 11y ago
  our military needs to be a lot more nimble Move fast, blow up hospitals? But I'm glad you accepted that the US is not a police service (ie legally accountable to the policed, following due process) but a military (ie an occupying force that executes people at will). The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are wars of choice by the US, and the end result has been a total destabilisation and millions of people killed or made refugees.
  - jcranmer 11y ago
    And the failure to intervene in Syria or Ukraine prevented a total destabilization and millions of refugees. Wait...
    - 11y ago

jacquesm 11y ago

> This is a money grab. No, it really isn't. It won't be effective but the judge here is not aiming for EU companies to earn more money. > There's a part of me that desperately hopes all major internet services just shut off Europe entirely. Welcome back to the Stone Age. Economies have becomes so intertwined that shutting Europe 'off the internet' by any other party (presumably the US or the rest of the world) is no longer feasible. It will backfire tremendously on those doing the shutting off. Besides that, you wouldn't really shut the internet down, merely split it. Even North Korea has internet access.

VikingCoder 11y ago
Have you looked at prices for data centers in Europe versus the US? Or their incompetence? > Economies have becomes so intertwined that shutting Europe 'off the internet' by any other party BS. Google shut off China. Independent companies are free to not do business anywhere the laws are stifling. I think it would be awesome if they did it all at once. Internet Blackout for Europe.
- jarek 11y ago
  Maybe Spotify can go first. Then CERN can limit its "web sites" to only work from within its member states
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    What does CERN have to do with Spotify and EU member states?
    - jarek 11y ago
      I'm mocking the idea of an Internet (though I rather suspect VikingCoder meant HTTP) Blackout for Europe by pointing out European HTTP services.
      - VikingCoder 11y ago

tobltobs 11y ago

World police? World arsonist would describe it better.

dang 11y ago

We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10337519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10337519 and marked it off-topic.

VikingCoder 11y ago
I appreciate your efforts to make Hacker News great, but I think this action is heavy-handed. The court's decision hurts the internet, hurts small companies on the internet, and hurts the ability of the United States to fight terrorism. I may not have worded this opinion particularly well, but it's ridiculous that my comment cannot even be expressed.
- dang 11y ago
  It can still be expressed, of course. It's just that it wasn't particularly a reply to its parent and took the discussion on a generic tangent (U.S. = world police) that is also a classic flamewar topic. We don't kill such subthreads, but we do move them. I can understand why you don't see it that way and wouldn't claim that our decisions are all obvious or all correct. They're imprecise judgment calls.
  - VikingCoder 11y ago
    I really appreciate your response.