4 ms·

> Now, if you really want to appeal to democracy, then it's pretty tough to criticize democratic sovereigns delegating their authority to other parties. The pr

by nmrm2 11y ago

> Now, if you really want to appeal to democracy, then it's pretty tough to criticize democratic sovereigns delegating their authority to other parties. The problem is that TPP is a one-way transfer of power -- the costs of (democratically choosing to) flaunt these courts would be overly onerous to citizens of many signatory states. Because TPP is de facto irreversable, your argument here is structurally similar to the argument that dictators make when their transition to power happens via reforms approved by democractic mechanisms. I.e., just because a democracy at one point approves of a reform, doesn't make that reform tautologically democractic at all future points in time.

yummyfajitas 11y ago
TPP is not irreversible - it's just that by reversing it, consumers will again suffer the hardships associated to non-free trade, just as they currently suffer them now. Lots of laws are "irreversible" in that regard. For example, Obamacare is irreversible because if we reverse it, the people currently receiving wealth transfers will suffer in the exact same way they suffered prior to Obamacare. Does this mean Obamacare is a "one-way transfer of power" and somehow anti-democratic?
- nmrm2 11y ago
  > TPP is not irreversible I hypothesize that for many signatory nations, it is de facto irreversible. > just as they currently suffer them now. Obviously I don't have the text, but it would be surprising if TPP contained no punitive clauses for openly flaunting the agreement. > Does this mean Obamacare is a "one-way transfer of power" and somehow anti-democratic? No. The "transfer of power" bit is the part that TPP and AFA don't have in common. It is the combination of a law that would be overly costly to change together with a transfer of sovereign power that makes TPP anti-democratic. Either one without the other is fine.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    Obviously I don't have the text, but it would be surprising if TPP contained no punitive clauses for openly flaunting the agreement. Punitive clauses are unenforceable insofar as they extend beyond "if you tariff us we'll tariff you back". Obamacare transfers sovereign power to various unelected agencies (e.g. HHS) as well. I guess you now agree that Obamacare is an anti-democratic measure?

by nmrm2 11y ago

yummyfajitas 11y ago

TPP is not irreversible - it's just that by reversing it, consumers will again suffer the hardships associated to non-free trade, just as they currently suffer them now. Lots of laws are "irreversible" in that regard. For example, Obamacare is irreversible because if we reverse it, the people currently receiving wealth transfers will suffer in the exact same way they suffered prior to Obamacare. Does this mean Obamacare is a "one-way transfer of power" and somehow anti-democratic?

nmrm2 11y ago
> TPP is not irreversible I hypothesize that for many signatory nations, it is de facto irreversible. > just as they currently suffer them now. Obviously I don't have the text, but it would be surprising if TPP contained no punitive clauses for openly flaunting the agreement. > Does this mean Obamacare is a "one-way transfer of power" and somehow anti-democratic? No. The "transfer of power" bit is the part that TPP and AFA don't have in common. It is the combination of a law that would be overly costly to change together with a transfer of sovereign power that makes TPP anti-democratic. Either one without the other is fine.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  Obviously I don't have the text, but it would be surprising if TPP contained no punitive clauses for openly flaunting the agreement. Punitive clauses are unenforceable insofar as they extend beyond "if you tariff us we'll tariff you back". Obamacare transfers sovereign power to various unelected agencies (e.g. HHS) as well. I guess you now agree that Obamacare is an anti-democratic measure?