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Different teams have different cultures that work for them. It's not impossible that the culture that alienates some people is the very culture that enables th

Different teams have different cultures that work for them. It's not impossible that the culture that alienates some people is the very culture that enables the phenomenal engineering of the Linux kernel. I personally would feel privileged to be a part of a group that puts engineering excellence beyond anything, including my own hurt feelings. There would be beauty for me in that emotional austerity and sheer directness. That being said, I empathize with the author. If a team culture that delivers doesn't work for someone, the best thing to do is to move on. Keep looking, don't settle.

pron 11y ago
> I personally would feel privileged to be a part of a group that puts engineering excellence beyond anything I wonder if other -- perhaps more minor -- achievements that displayed engineering excellence like the Apollo Program, invention of the transistor, the first compiler etc. espoused this same "enabling" culture. > including my own hurt feelings This is a meme that keeps coming up and shows a complete misunderstanding of this situation and others like it. This is not about hurt feelings. It is about marginalization, which is pushing (or keeping) qualified people away. Sometimes, the means of the marginalization is a hostile environment. Sometimes there are other means. The author's feelings have not been hurt; she just couldn't stand working in an environment of assholes. > If a team culture that delivers doesn't work for someone, the best thing to do is to move on The best thing for whom? That person perhaps. But the best thing for our industry is that people speak up -- as Sarah Sharp has -- people listen, and people change things.
- zeveb 11y ago
  > I wonder if other -- perhaps more minor -- achievements that displayed engineering excellence like the Apollo Program, invention of the transistor, the first compiler etc. espoused this same "enabling" culture. You might be surprised. While I don't know about those particular projects, I know that, for example, Admiral Rickover was direct and blunt with those in the U.S. Navy's nuclear propulsion programme. He didn't suffer fools kindly, or at all. But then, he had the health and safety of his men, the nation and the world to worry about. I'd take a few hurt feelings over another Therac-25. > It is about marginalization, which is pushing (or keeping) qualified people away. No, mariginalisation is about pushing or keeping away people rejected by the group. When it keeps the unqualified away, it's a good thing. In the pursuit of excellence, even someone who's excellent on an absolute scale may not be excellent enough. A team of the best dozen engineers in the world will necessarily not include the 13th-best engineer: he is incredibly good, but he's just not good enough for that team. Is the kernel team marginalising the good enough along with the bad? I honestly don't know.
  - deng 11y ago
    > I'd take a few hurt feelings over another Therac-25. Therac-25 was headed by an abusive manager, and all the good developers quit because they knew they could easily get a job elsewhere. Did I pull that out of thin air? Of course I did, but so did you.
chasing 11y ago
> I personally would feel privileged to be a part of a group that puts engineering excellence beyond anything, including my own hurt feelings. There would be beauty for me in that emotional austerity and sheer directness. You should tolerate being part of a group that puts engineering excellence above offering any kind of camaraderie or emotional support. You should feel privileged to be a part of a group that achieves engineering excellence while still being a bunch of cool and friendly people.
- icebraining 11y ago
  Telling people how they should feel is not very nice either.
  - chasing 11y ago
    You shouldn't feel that way.
JoshTriplett 11y ago
You can be direct without making personal attacks, and you can have require people to defend their code without making them feel unwelcome.
cortesoft 11y ago
I think personal attacks are the opposite of being direct. What is the point of attacking someone personally? If you want to be direct, you would never talk about the other person (good or bad), but would talk about the code only.

pron 11y ago

> I personally would feel privileged to be a part of a group that puts engineering excellence beyond anything I wonder if other -- perhaps more minor -- achievements that displayed engineering excellence like the Apollo Program, invention of the transistor, the first compiler etc. espoused this same "enabling" culture. > including my own hurt feelings This is a meme that keeps coming up and shows a complete misunderstanding of this situation and others like it. This is not about hurt feelings. It is about marginalization, which is pushing (or keeping) qualified people away. Sometimes, the means of the marginalization is a hostile environment. Sometimes there are other means. The author's feelings have not been hurt; she just couldn't stand working in an environment of assholes. > If a team culture that delivers doesn't work for someone, the best thing to do is to move on The best thing for whom? That person perhaps. But the best thing for our industry is that people speak up -- as Sarah Sharp has -- people listen, and people change things.

zeveb 11y ago
> I wonder if other -- perhaps more minor -- achievements that displayed engineering excellence like the Apollo Program, invention of the transistor, the first compiler etc. espoused this same "enabling" culture. You might be surprised. While I don't know about those particular projects, I know that, for example, Admiral Rickover was direct and blunt with those in the U.S. Navy's nuclear propulsion programme. He didn't suffer fools kindly, or at all. But then, he had the health and safety of his men, the nation and the world to worry about. I'd take a few hurt feelings over another Therac-25. > It is about marginalization, which is pushing (or keeping) qualified people away. No, mariginalisation is about pushing or keeping away people rejected by the group. When it keeps the unqualified away, it's a good thing. In the pursuit of excellence, even someone who's excellent on an absolute scale may not be excellent enough. A team of the best dozen engineers in the world will necessarily not include the 13th-best engineer: he is incredibly good, but he's just not good enough for that team. Is the kernel team marginalising the good enough along with the bad? I honestly don't know.
- deng 11y ago
  > I'd take a few hurt feelings over another Therac-25. Therac-25 was headed by an abusive manager, and all the good developers quit because they knew they could easily get a job elsewhere. Did I pull that out of thin air? Of course I did, but so did you.

chasing 11y ago

> I personally would feel privileged to be a part of a group that puts engineering excellence beyond anything, including my own hurt feelings. There would be beauty for me in that emotional austerity and sheer directness. You should tolerate being part of a group that puts engineering excellence above offering any kind of camaraderie or emotional support. You should feel privileged to be a part of a group that achieves engineering excellence while still being a bunch of cool and friendly people.

icebraining 11y ago
Telling people how they should feel is not very nice either.
- chasing 11y ago
  You shouldn't feel that way.

JoshTriplett 11y ago

You can be direct without making personal attacks, and you can have require people to defend their code without making them feel unwelcome.

cortesoft 11y ago

I think personal attacks are the opposite of being direct. What is the point of attacking someone personally? If you want to be direct, you would never talk about the other person (good or bad), but would talk about the code only.