10 ms·

One of few places on Earth where an international boundary can be seen at night

136 points by vinnyglennon 11y ago

Theodores 11y ago
One man decided that border in a matter of a few weeks having never been to India before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radcliffe_Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radcliffe_Line He left after drawing the line, burning his papers and not accepting payment. So nobody really knows why the border was decided to be where it is yet untold billions have been spent defending it and lighting it up. Oh, and that border cost ~500,000 lives.
dest 11y ago
I wonder how many MW are spent on this border
- pp19dd 11y ago
  Good question. Wikipedia entry claims 150,000 floodlights but I question the origin of this number. It showed up out of the blue, in a single edit, and none of the cited sources have the said number in them. Two pieces of information that the edit added are that there are (A) 0.15 million lights, and (B) 50,000 poles they're on: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indo-Pakistani_border&diff=next&oldid=630098351 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indo-Pakistani_bo... Trying to trace A or B just shows articles that obviously quoted wikipedia, and they use either version of 0.15 or 150,000 depending on when they were written. At this point, the wiki entry number is almost imaginary, being circularly reinforced by web articles referencing it.
  - dest 11y ago
    thanks for the research. this article http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2033886/India-Pakistan-border-visible-space.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2033886/India-Pakist... may give further insight. from the picture, one can estimate that lights are separated by approx 20 meters, and the length of the lighted border is about 2000 km. This gives about 100 000 floodlights, which is consistent with the Wikipedia figure. Those lights seem rather powerful. I would not be astonished if they were 1kW each (might be much smaller if made of LED, but the yellow-ish color suggests it's not). This gives 100 MW of lighting power. Crap, that's a lot.
chrispeel 11y ago
See also the South/North Korea border: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2725415/Nasa-satellite-images-North-Korea-secretive-space.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2725415/Nasa-...
- bendykstra 11y ago
  Also, East and West Berlin, still distinguishable by the streetlamps which have not been replaced since reunification. http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/apr/21/astronaut-chris-hadfield-berlin-divide http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/apr/21/astro...
- sgustard 11y ago
  US/Mexico: http://visiblesuns.blogspot.com/2014/07/us-mexico-border-at-night-from-space.html http://visiblesuns.blogspot.com/2014/07/us-mexico-border-at-...
1971genocide 11y ago
I am usually for open borders but pakistan is really an exception. They have too many problems - They in the past used to openly fund terrorist militias in both India and Nepal. Until they sort themselves out its a good idea to create a donald trump style wall between them and India.
- cocoawhale 11y ago
  This comment is so discriminatory. India and Pakistan basically have the same problems. Both countries are quite screwy. Read real books on both countries rather than just reading new articles and you would know this.
  - ouiyaaa 11y ago
    Really, What about the 1971 genocide?
  - sremani 11y ago
    Disagree. India and Pakistan are similar and have similar problems but the level of white-washing of history and devotion to "Garrison State" does not happen in India. Heck, the education system in India is wildly varied from state to state. After reading real books and what not, India is screwed up, but if Indians want to feel any better they only have to look at Pakistan and take comfort from the fact Pakistan is more screwed up.
    - 1971genocide 11y ago
      India is amazing. As a ethnically hindu bangladeshi I would eat a hat to switch my passport so that I could go work in bangalore ! I do not have a problem with muslims - most of my friends are. But islam is a terrible curse in south east asia in general. I am not sure if its the saudis spreading wahabbism - I mean pakistan was terrible even during the independence. Pakistan needs some sort of Hiroshima moment like the Japanese to come to terms with the fact that they as a country made a grave mistake breaking away from India.
20kleagues 11y ago
As a Pakistani I feel genuinely sad that so much is being spent on enforcing borders when there's so much poverty on either sides of the border in the southern regions.
- ajeet_dhaliwal 11y ago
  Poverty won't be solved by spending less on enforcing borders. This is the same type of thing the BBC says whenever India does something like send a probe to the moon or mars.
  - ucaetano 11y ago
    Actually, it will. Not because of the extra money, but because of increased trade and job mobility that will come with a more open border.
    - ajeet_dhaliwal 11y ago
      That is generally true but in this case that isn't really an option.
    - czardoz 11y ago
      One could argue that such massive projects generate more employment, and do their bit in tackling the unemployment issues.
    - 1024core 11y ago
      It is Pakistan that does not want Indian goods flowing in. India is more than happy to trade with Pakistan.
- grokavi 11y ago
  And as a South Indian I feel cheated that the money I pay as tax is being wasted this way in what is essentially a North Indian problem.
  - 11y ago
mattzito 11y ago
Once flying from the US to Delhi, a flight attendant came to get me in the middle of the night, and waved me over to an open window row to show me the border. It's quite pretty, but it is striking how few lights are on other than the border itself.
- chimeracoder 11y ago
  > It's quite pretty, but it is striking how few lights are on other than the border itself. A few reasons for that: 1) The border between India and Pakistan is one of the less populated regions of both countries, for a variety of reasons. 2) Many cities in India have a variety of load-mitigation ordinances in effect to reduce power and water consumption. I'm not sure what the state is these days in Delhi and nearby areas, but it's similar to what's done in parts of the US, just on a larger scale. 3) Power is expensive! In the US, it's astonishing how much electricity we waste, even (or especially) at night. India is overall a less wealthy country, so people naturally conserve electricity much more than we're used to over here.
- arihant 11y ago
  There's desert on either side of the border.
derefr 11y ago
I first misread this as "international date line can be seen at night" and was questioning for a moment whether everything I knew about time zones was wrong. (Though, I do imagine there are some good pictures to be taken where it's 4PM on one side of a border and 5PM on the other side, and very different things are happening as a result.)

136 points by vinnyglennon 11y ago

One man decided that border in a matter of a few weeks having never been to India before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radcliffe_Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radcliffe_Line He left after drawing the line, burning his papers and not accepting payment. So nobody really knows why the border was decided to be where it is yet untold billions have been spent defending it and lighting it up. Oh, and that border cost ~500,000 lives.

dest 11y ago

I wonder how many MW are spent on this border

pp19dd 11y ago
Good question. Wikipedia entry claims 150,000 floodlights but I question the origin of this number. It showed up out of the blue, in a single edit, and none of the cited sources have the said number in them. Two pieces of information that the edit added are that there are (A) 0.15 million lights, and (B) 50,000 poles they're on: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indo-Pakistani_border&diff=next&oldid=630098351 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indo-Pakistani_bo... Trying to trace A or B just shows articles that obviously quoted wikipedia, and they use either version of 0.15 or 150,000 depending on when they were written. At this point, the wiki entry number is almost imaginary, being circularly reinforced by web articles referencing it.
- dest 11y ago
  thanks for the research. this article http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2033886/India-Pakistan-border-visible-space.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2033886/India-Pakist... may give further insight. from the picture, one can estimate that lights are separated by approx 20 meters, and the length of the lighted border is about 2000 km. This gives about 100 000 floodlights, which is consistent with the Wikipedia figure. Those lights seem rather powerful. I would not be astonished if they were 1kW each (might be much smaller if made of LED, but the yellow-ish color suggests it's not). This gives 100 MW of lighting power. Crap, that's a lot.

chrispeel 11y ago

See also the South/North Korea border: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2725415/Nasa-satellite-images-North-Korea-secretive-space.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2725415/Nasa-...

bendykstra 11y ago
Also, East and West Berlin, still distinguishable by the streetlamps which have not been replaced since reunification. http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/apr/21/astronaut-chris-hadfield-berlin-divide http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/apr/21/astro...
sgustard 11y ago
US/Mexico: http://visiblesuns.blogspot.com/2014/07/us-mexico-border-at-night-from-space.html http://visiblesuns.blogspot.com/2014/07/us-mexico-border-at-...

1971genocide 11y ago

I am usually for open borders but pakistan is really an exception. They have too many problems - They in the past used to openly fund terrorist militias in both India and Nepal. Until they sort themselves out its a good idea to create a donald trump style wall between them and India.

cocoawhale 11y ago
This comment is so discriminatory. India and Pakistan basically have the same problems. Both countries are quite screwy. Read real books on both countries rather than just reading new articles and you would know this.
- ouiyaaa 11y ago
  Really, What about the 1971 genocide?
- sremani 11y ago
  Disagree. India and Pakistan are similar and have similar problems but the level of white-washing of history and devotion to "Garrison State" does not happen in India. Heck, the education system in India is wildly varied from state to state. After reading real books and what not, India is screwed up, but if Indians want to feel any better they only have to look at Pakistan and take comfort from the fact Pakistan is more screwed up.
  - 1971genocide 11y ago
    India is amazing. As a ethnically hindu bangladeshi I would eat a hat to switch my passport so that I could go work in bangalore ! I do not have a problem with muslims - most of my friends are. But islam is a terrible curse in south east asia in general. I am not sure if its the saudis spreading wahabbism - I mean pakistan was terrible even during the independence. Pakistan needs some sort of Hiroshima moment like the Japanese to come to terms with the fact that they as a country made a grave mistake breaking away from India.

20kleagues 11y ago

As a Pakistani I feel genuinely sad that so much is being spent on enforcing borders when there's so much poverty on either sides of the border in the southern regions.

ajeet_dhaliwal 11y ago
Poverty won't be solved by spending less on enforcing borders. This is the same type of thing the BBC says whenever India does something like send a probe to the moon or mars.
- ucaetano 11y ago
  Actually, it will. Not because of the extra money, but because of increased trade and job mobility that will come with a more open border.
  - ajeet_dhaliwal 11y ago
    That is generally true but in this case that isn't really an option.
  - czardoz 11y ago
    One could argue that such massive projects generate more employment, and do their bit in tackling the unemployment issues.
  - 1024core 11y ago
    It is Pakistan that does not want Indian goods flowing in. India is more than happy to trade with Pakistan.
grokavi 11y ago
And as a South Indian I feel cheated that the money I pay as tax is being wasted this way in what is essentially a North Indian problem.
- 11y ago

mattzito 11y ago

Once flying from the US to Delhi, a flight attendant came to get me in the middle of the night, and waved me over to an open window row to show me the border. It's quite pretty, but it is striking how few lights are on other than the border itself.

chimeracoder 11y ago
> It's quite pretty, but it is striking how few lights are on other than the border itself. A few reasons for that: 1) The border between India and Pakistan is one of the less populated regions of both countries, for a variety of reasons. 2) Many cities in India have a variety of load-mitigation ordinances in effect to reduce power and water consumption. I'm not sure what the state is these days in Delhi and nearby areas, but it's similar to what's done in parts of the US, just on a larger scale. 3) Power is expensive! In the US, it's astonishing how much electricity we waste, even (or especially) at night. India is overall a less wealthy country, so people naturally conserve electricity much more than we're used to over here.
arihant 11y ago
There's desert on either side of the border.

derefr 11y ago

I first misread this as "international date line can be seen at night" and was questioning for a moment whether everything I knew about time zones was wrong. (Though, I do imagine there are some good pictures to be taken where it's 4PM on one side of a border and 5PM on the other side, and very different things are happening as a result.)