4 ms·

R.I.P. democratic free society.

by binarray2000 11y ago

theklub 11y ago
do you know something we don't?
- binarray2000 11y ago
  I don't. No one does (besides people who have negotiated it). AND EXACTLY THAT IS THE PROBLEM! Those who are elected are kept in the dark, too: http://www.ip-watch.org/2015/09/09/german-bundestag-not-happy-about-being-kept-out-of-ttip-reading-room-in-berlin/ http://www.ip-watch.org/2015/09/09/german-bundestag-not-happ... Maybe we the citizens are just plain stupid to understand so we need to be persuaded: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140620/14292827638/us-embassy-berlin-offering-cold-hard-cash-people-to-create-pro-taftattip-propaganda.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140620/14292827638/us-em... (Just like we were for Iraq war) One of the examples of the "brave new world": http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/22/eu-dropped-pesticide-laws-due-to-us-pressure-over-ttip-documents-reveal http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/22/eu-droppe... You want you and your children and grandchildren to live in it? If TTIP is SOOOO great why secrecy, why so many people who don't have financial interest in it are against it? I could write a lot about it...
  - blumkvist 11y ago
    Of course it would be negotiated in secrecy. How else do you expect something to get done? Every political player will get facts out of context and make his rhetoric out of it, sprinkling emotions and indignation to rally up clueless people, in order to build up his image or get a political favor. Now imagine this happening in every country and mass media amplifying it. Negotiators would have NO room to negotiate. Parliaments have to ratify and have appropriate time to get themselves familiar with the matter. Stop drinking the kool aid.
    - binarray2000 11y ago
      So basically, you are for sacrificing democracy on the altar of secrecy. "Clueless people" are always dangerous. And "every political player" can "rally them up". Yes! That's how it should be! People must be informed and have rights to organize and protest for or against something. All fan-boys of diverse trade agreements have only one thing to defend: Secrecy. (And, for the sanity of the discussion, throw out such words as "drinking the kool-aid")
      - blumkvist 11y ago
        Not interested in a discussion. You don't seem to have any regard for practicalities. Only utopia ridden dreams.
- cpymchn 11y ago
  If copyright extensions are in the agreement -- which I think is a good assumption -- then the Disney/Bono content lobby will be effectively writing the law in the signatory countries. I think you can call that anti-democratic. Ian Fleming's work -- as an example -- is in the public domain in Canada, but not for long. I am also curious if the DMCA -- and its flaws -- will be internationalized.
- jlg23 11y ago
  The problem with these deals is that citizens of a partner country cannot easily overturn them. When you agree on international standards and some partner wants to introduce higher standards in their own country, they are liable for the losses of companies who suddenly cannot sell their products in that one country anymore. Of course I do not know the specifics of this agreement yet, but clauses that enforce this have been introduced into all attempts at international trade treaties for more than a decade now, so I think it is a safe bet to say this one contains them as well.
kelvin0 11y ago
Well, if all else fails, at least US citizens can fight economic tyranny with their numerous guns/rifles ... Pheeew!
- binarray2000 11y ago
  Yeah, guns are good... at least for something. :))))

R.I.P. democratic free society.

theklub 11y ago

do you know something we don't?

binarray2000 11y ago
I don't. No one does (besides people who have negotiated it). AND EXACTLY THAT IS THE PROBLEM! Those who are elected are kept in the dark, too: http://www.ip-watch.org/2015/09/09/german-bundestag-not-happy-about-being-kept-out-of-ttip-reading-room-in-berlin/ http://www.ip-watch.org/2015/09/09/german-bundestag-not-happ... Maybe we the citizens are just plain stupid to understand so we need to be persuaded: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140620/14292827638/us-embassy-berlin-offering-cold-hard-cash-people-to-create-pro-taftattip-propaganda.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140620/14292827638/us-em... (Just like we were for Iraq war) One of the examples of the "brave new world": http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/22/eu-dropped-pesticide-laws-due-to-us-pressure-over-ttip-documents-reveal http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/may/22/eu-droppe... You want you and your children and grandchildren to live in it? If TTIP is SOOOO great why secrecy, why so many people who don't have financial interest in it are against it? I could write a lot about it...
- blumkvist 11y ago
  Of course it would be negotiated in secrecy. How else do you expect something to get done? Every political player will get facts out of context and make his rhetoric out of it, sprinkling emotions and indignation to rally up clueless people, in order to build up his image or get a political favor. Now imagine this happening in every country and mass media amplifying it. Negotiators would have NO room to negotiate. Parliaments have to ratify and have appropriate time to get themselves familiar with the matter. Stop drinking the kool aid.
  - binarray2000 11y ago
    So basically, you are for sacrificing democracy on the altar of secrecy. "Clueless people" are always dangerous. And "every political player" can "rally them up". Yes! That's how it should be! People must be informed and have rights to organize and protest for or against something. All fan-boys of diverse trade agreements have only one thing to defend: Secrecy. (And, for the sanity of the discussion, throw out such words as "drinking the kool-aid")
    - blumkvist 11y ago
      Not interested in a discussion. You don't seem to have any regard for practicalities. Only utopia ridden dreams.
cpymchn 11y ago
If copyright extensions are in the agreement -- which I think is a good assumption -- then the Disney/Bono content lobby will be effectively writing the law in the signatory countries. I think you can call that anti-democratic. Ian Fleming's work -- as an example -- is in the public domain in Canada, but not for long. I am also curious if the DMCA -- and its flaws -- will be internationalized.
jlg23 11y ago
The problem with these deals is that citizens of a partner country cannot easily overturn them. When you agree on international standards and some partner wants to introduce higher standards in their own country, they are liable for the losses of companies who suddenly cannot sell their products in that one country anymore. Of course I do not know the specifics of this agreement yet, but clauses that enforce this have been introduced into all attempts at international trade treaties for more than a decade now, so I think it is a safe bet to say this one contains them as well.

kelvin0 11y ago

Well, if all else fails, at least US citizens can fight economic tyranny with their numerous guns/rifles ... Pheeew!

binarray2000 11y ago
Yeah, guns are good... at least for something. :))))