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Larry Wall's discussion on the logo, Camelia (https://raw.githubusercontent.com/perl6/mu/master/misc/camelia.txt https://raw.githubusercontent.com/perl6/mu/mast

Larry Wall's discussion on the logo, Camelia (https://raw.githubusercontent.com/perl6/mu/master/misc/camelia.txt https://raw.githubusercontent.com/perl6/mu/master/misc/camel...): Discussion Highlights ===================== From: Larry Wall Date: March 24, 2009 10:25 Subject: Re: Logo considerations [...] I think there's a tendency to go way too abstract in most of these proposals. I want something with gut appeal on the order of Tux. In particular I want a logo for Perl 6 that is: Fun Cool Cute Named Lively Punable Personal Concrete Symmetric Asymmetric Attractive Relational Metamorphic Decolorizable Shrinkable to textual icon Shrinkable to graphical icon In addition, you can extend just about anything by attaching "P6" wings to it. I also take it as a given that we want to discourage misogyny in our community. You of the masculine persuasion should consider it an opportunity to show off your sensitive side. :) Hence, Camelia. Larry

smonff 11y ago
Happy to see someone who discourage misogyny in his wishes for a new logo :-)
Zikes 11y ago
I don't get it. How does disliking a butterfly logo equate to hating women?
- autoreleasepool 11y ago
  It doesn't. The logo is more childish than it is feminine anyways.
  - smonff 11y ago
    Discouraging misogyny doesn't mean feminine.
    - Zikes 11y ago
      But in this context (a rather garish butterfly logo), what does it mean?
      - kbenson 11y ago
        Not overtly masculine? I can imagine the temptation was there for some to promote an overly aggressive logo.
        Zikes 11y ago
        The idea that masculinity is akin to misogyny is as dangerous and harmful as misogyny itself. As is the idea that aggression is a purely masculine trait, or that any of the traits Larry listed are exclusively feminine.
        pvaldes 11y ago
        Yup, shrinkable to graphical icon is an exclusively masculine trick, that's for sure.
        kbenson 11y ago
        Larry didn't say it should be feminine, nor did he imply it. He also didn't say masculinity is misogyny. At most he called for something androgynous. I think to interpret his statements otherwise is projecting. > As is the idea that aggression is a purely masculine trait I didn't say it was a purely masculine trait, but to ignore the clear association between masculinity and aggression in many cultures is to ignore reality. There are many social, economic and (possibly) evolutionary reasons why men are often more aggressive than women. Couple this with the relative involvement of women in CS and programming positions, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that aggression in our industry can be seen as overly masculine.
        Zikes 11y ago
        He literally says his vision for the logo is to discourage misogyny in the parent post: > I also take it as a given that we want to discourage misogyny in our community. All I want to know is what does the one have to do with the other? What does a butterfly logo have to do with the concept of sexism towards women? That's it. That's my question. I have no idea how to state it more simply. Someone suggested that "discouraging misogyny" does not necessarily mean femininity, so I asked what "discouraging misogyny" does mean in this context, and you replied "not overtly masculine". That response does not simply allude to the idea that masculinity is misogyny, it is literally saying that masculinity is misogyny. Hence my reply that the very idea is itself sexist and dangerous. It was my response to your saying masculinity is misogyny, and your interpretation of Larry's original statement about the logo to mean as such. That is not projecting, that is simple reading comprehension.
  - virtualsue 11y ago
    That's pretty much the intention. I have heard Larry Wall say that Camelia was created to appeal to 7 year old girls. I didn't hear him go into any complicated discussions regarding masculinity/femininity or any of that jazz.
tcooks 11y ago
> You of the masculine persuasion should consider it an opportunity to show off your sensitive side. :) I might perceive this differently because of my cultural background, but isn't it a bit misandric to claim masculinity as unsensitive? Tom Cooks
- Karunamon 11y ago
  I'm having a hard time thinking of a logo that is both * Something a programming language with wide use would ever adopt, past, present, or future * ..and is misogynistic in any way What the hell is that sentence directed at?
  - smonff 11y ago
    Maybe he meant something that Peaches could make a suit of on stage: https://twitter.com/CreativeCopper1/status/651675808122060800 https://twitter.com/CreativeCopper1/status/65167580812206080...
justinator 11y ago
I remember volunteering to create some logo ideas for Perl 6 - maybe a decade ago? I did research and presented ideas. I was at a step even before thumbnail sketches - just wanted to get some feedback from the Perl community - am I on the right track? Any other ideas to look at? [0] Larry kinda went, "NO IT"S THIS." and there was Camelia. Honestly, Camelia is just slightly worse than the redesign of The Life Aquatic Flag/Logo. Which itself was funny, as this was from a comedy [1]. [0] http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2009/01/msg938.html http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2009/01/msg9... [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=The+Life+Aquatic+with+Steve+Zissou+logo+flag https://www.google.com/search?q=The+Life+Aquatic+with+Steve+...
- justinator 11y ago
  Ah, I remember now - Larry just posted a PDF of Camelia.[0] I was under the impression that Larry was banned from being in involved in the implementation of Perl 6. ;) I kinda saw that logo and gave up the idea of helping. It was just so horrible as to defy logic. Still love Perl and I think a butterfly is a great idea - and even this is a good as a start, but it's not a strong enough logo for people to have careers depend upon. Like me. It doesn't even tick all the checkboxes that Larry had. If you made this logo in an intro design class in art school, you'd be ridiculed. [0] http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2009/03/msg999.html http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2009/03/msg9...

smonff 11y ago

Happy to see someone who discourage misogyny in his wishes for a new logo :-)

Zikes 11y ago

I don't get it. How does disliking a butterfly logo equate to hating women?

autoreleasepool 11y ago
It doesn't. The logo is more childish than it is feminine anyways.
- smonff 11y ago
  Discouraging misogyny doesn't mean feminine.
  - Zikes 11y ago
    But in this context (a rather garish butterfly logo), what does it mean?
    - kbenson 11y ago
      Not overtly masculine? I can imagine the temptation was there for some to promote an overly aggressive logo.
      - Zikes 11y ago
        The idea that masculinity is akin to misogyny is as dangerous and harmful as misogyny itself. As is the idea that aggression is a purely masculine trait, or that any of the traits Larry listed are exclusively feminine.
        pvaldes 11y ago
        Yup, shrinkable to graphical icon is an exclusively masculine trick, that's for sure.
        kbenson 11y ago
        Larry didn't say it should be feminine, nor did he imply it. He also didn't say masculinity is misogyny. At most he called for something androgynous. I think to interpret his statements otherwise is projecting. > As is the idea that aggression is a purely masculine trait I didn't say it was a purely masculine trait, but to ignore the clear association between masculinity and aggression in many cultures is to ignore reality. There are many social, economic and (possibly) evolutionary reasons why men are often more aggressive than women. Couple this with the relative involvement of women in CS and programming positions, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that aggression in our industry can be seen as overly masculine.
        Zikes 11y ago
        He literally says his vision for the logo is to discourage misogyny in the parent post: > I also take it as a given that we want to discourage misogyny in our community. All I want to know is what does the one have to do with the other? What does a butterfly logo have to do with the concept of sexism towards women? That's it. That's my question. I have no idea how to state it more simply. Someone suggested that "discouraging misogyny" does not necessarily mean femininity, so I asked what "discouraging misogyny" does mean in this context, and you replied "not overtly masculine". That response does not simply allude to the idea that masculinity is misogyny, it is literally saying that masculinity is misogyny. Hence my reply that the very idea is itself sexist and dangerous. It was my response to your saying masculinity is misogyny, and your interpretation of Larry's original statement about the logo to mean as such. That is not projecting, that is simple reading comprehension.
- virtualsue 11y ago
  That's pretty much the intention. I have heard Larry Wall say that Camelia was created to appeal to 7 year old girls. I didn't hear him go into any complicated discussions regarding masculinity/femininity or any of that jazz.

tcooks 11y ago

> You of the masculine persuasion should consider it an opportunity to show off your sensitive side. :) I might perceive this differently because of my cultural background, but isn't it a bit misandric to claim masculinity as unsensitive? Tom Cooks

Karunamon 11y ago
I'm having a hard time thinking of a logo that is both * Something a programming language with wide use would ever adopt, past, present, or future * ..and is misogynistic in any way What the hell is that sentence directed at?
- smonff 11y ago
  Maybe he meant something that Peaches could make a suit of on stage: https://twitter.com/CreativeCopper1/status/651675808122060800 https://twitter.com/CreativeCopper1/status/65167580812206080...

justinator 11y ago

I remember volunteering to create some logo ideas for Perl 6 - maybe a decade ago? I did research and presented ideas. I was at a step even before thumbnail sketches - just wanted to get some feedback from the Perl community - am I on the right track? Any other ideas to look at? [0] Larry kinda went, "NO IT"S THIS." and there was Camelia. Honestly, Camelia is just slightly worse than the redesign of The Life Aquatic Flag/Logo. Which itself was funny, as this was from a comedy [1]. [0] http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2009/01/msg938.html http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2009/01/msg9... [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=The+Life+Aquatic+with+Steve+Zissou+logo+flag https://www.google.com/search?q=The+Life+Aquatic+with+Steve+...

justinator 11y ago
Ah, I remember now - Larry just posted a PDF of Camelia.[0] I was under the impression that Larry was banned from being in involved in the implementation of Perl 6. ;) I kinda saw that logo and gave up the idea of helping. It was just so horrible as to defy logic. Still love Perl and I think a butterfly is a great idea - and even this is a good as a start, but it's not a strong enough logo for people to have careers depend upon. Like me. It doesn't even tick all the checkboxes that Larry had. If you made this logo in an intro design class in art school, you'd be ridiculed. [0] http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2009/03/msg999.html http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2009/03/msg9...