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It's just my opinion, but every major car manufacturer produces cars which have very similar test results compared to cheating VW results (fuel efficiency and s

by trymas 11y ago

It's just my opinion, but every major car manufacturer produces cars which have very similar test results compared to cheating VW results (fuel efficiency and such). I mean if VW got busted, with breaking NOx values by up to 20 times, for the purpose of better acceleration, fuel efficiency and other parameters. So does it mean that others somehow cheat, but do not get caught? Or VW, the biggest car company group in the world, were producing much worse engines, than any other car manufacturer (which sells cars in US) in the world. Somehow I think it's the first one...

tptacek 11y ago
I don't know, but when we think about computer hardware manufacturers "cheating" benchmarks, those vendors virtually always have plausible deniability. They game the benchmarks, optimizing part of their featureset to improve scores in ways that don't carry over to real-world use. That's not what happened here. VW has no plausible deniability in this case.
- steve19 11y ago
  Samsung has for example been known to detect benchmarks and then over clock the cpu and gpu. That is outright cheating. ://www.extremetech.com/computing/177841-samsungs-latest-android-update-no-longer-cheats-on-benchmarks
  - duskwuff 11y ago
    Back around 2003, there was some controversy over similar benchmark cheating for graphics drivers: http://www.geek.com/games/is-nvidia-cheating-on-benchmarks-553389/ http://www.geek.com/games/is-nvidia-cheating-on-benchmarks-5...
- wolf550e 11y ago
  "Kyle Bennett at the HardOCP found that replacing every instance of "quake" with "quack" in the Quake III executable changed the Radeon 8500's performance in the game substantially." https://techreport.com/review/3089/how-ati-drivers-optimize-quake-iii https://techreport.com/review/3089/how-ati-drivers-optimize-...
ethagknight 11y ago
While entirely possible/probable that other manufactures are cheating the law, another reasonable alternative is that other cars employ more expensive exhaust management systems. VW's is the only major non-luxury small Diesel engine sold in the US.
boogerbear 11y ago
Diesel is a factor here, too. The EU strategically switched to diesel in the 90's (I think) in order to meet carbon emissions standards. Diesels are more efficient. Drivers in Germany like diesels because diesel is also cheaper than gasoline, which is not true in the US. Diesel has a problematic history in the US, though, and US emissions standards are tough on diesel by-products like NOx. I would like to know how much of that is anti-competitive and how much is genuine concern for the environment. VW (and the EU in general) bet heavily on diesel. VW in particular had to cheat to meet the US emissions standards because they were under pressure to compete with other automakers to gain entry into the US market. Whether others did the same remains to be seen. US makers don't really product diesel cars, that is why they did not have this problem.
- mikestew 11y ago
  Diesel has a problematic history in the US, though, and US emissions standards are tough on diesel by-products like NOx. I would like to know how much of that is anti-competitive and how much is genuine concern for the environment. Genuine concern. US cars were virtually crippled in the 70s due to NOx standards (power-robbing EGR valves being the main culprit, IIRC). For example, the high-end version of the Chevrolet Camaro in 1976 was getting 165bhp out of a 350ci V8 small block (for comparison, I think the plain Jane 2015 Corvette my parents just bought puts out 450bhp from the modern version of that engine). The straight six cylinder version put out less power than my 1.4L four cylinder Scion. All that smog in the LA valley back in the 70s? That was NOx, so at least in the case of California, those standards were there for a reason. Besides, small diesels were just a gleam in VW's eye when those standards were put in place, so there was nothing to anti-competitive about.

by trymas 11y ago

tptacek 11y ago

I don't know, but when we think about computer hardware manufacturers "cheating" benchmarks, those vendors virtually always have plausible deniability. They game the benchmarks, optimizing part of their featureset to improve scores in ways that don't carry over to real-world use. That's not what happened here. VW has no plausible deniability in this case.

steve19 11y ago
Samsung has for example been known to detect benchmarks and then over clock the cpu and gpu. That is outright cheating. ://www.extremetech.com/computing/177841-samsungs-latest-android-update-no-longer-cheats-on-benchmarks
- duskwuff 11y ago
  Back around 2003, there was some controversy over similar benchmark cheating for graphics drivers: http://www.geek.com/games/is-nvidia-cheating-on-benchmarks-553389/ http://www.geek.com/games/is-nvidia-cheating-on-benchmarks-5...
wolf550e 11y ago
"Kyle Bennett at the HardOCP found that replacing every instance of "quake" with "quack" in the Quake III executable changed the Radeon 8500's performance in the game substantially." https://techreport.com/review/3089/how-ati-drivers-optimize-quake-iii https://techreport.com/review/3089/how-ati-drivers-optimize-...

ethagknight 11y ago

While entirely possible/probable that other manufactures are cheating the law, another reasonable alternative is that other cars employ more expensive exhaust management systems. VW's is the only major non-luxury small Diesel engine sold in the US.

boogerbear 11y ago

Diesel is a factor here, too. The EU strategically switched to diesel in the 90's (I think) in order to meet carbon emissions standards. Diesels are more efficient. Drivers in Germany like diesels because diesel is also cheaper than gasoline, which is not true in the US. Diesel has a problematic history in the US, though, and US emissions standards are tough on diesel by-products like NOx. I would like to know how much of that is anti-competitive and how much is genuine concern for the environment. VW (and the EU in general) bet heavily on diesel. VW in particular had to cheat to meet the US emissions standards because they were under pressure to compete with other automakers to gain entry into the US market. Whether others did the same remains to be seen. US makers don't really product diesel cars, that is why they did not have this problem.

mikestew 11y ago
Diesel has a problematic history in the US, though, and US emissions standards are tough on diesel by-products like NOx. I would like to know how much of that is anti-competitive and how much is genuine concern for the environment. Genuine concern. US cars were virtually crippled in the 70s due to NOx standards (power-robbing EGR valves being the main culprit, IIRC). For example, the high-end version of the Chevrolet Camaro in 1976 was getting 165bhp out of a 350ci V8 small block (for comparison, I think the plain Jane 2015 Corvette my parents just bought puts out 450bhp from the modern version of that engine). The straight six cylinder version put out less power than my 1.4L four cylinder Scion. All that smog in the LA valley back in the 70s? That was NOx, so at least in the case of California, those standards were there for a reason. Besides, small diesels were just a gleam in VW's eye when those standards were put in place, so there was nothing to anti-competitive about.