4 ms·

It is so obvious what is happening at the moment. One vendor gets "busted" for "optimizing" for a benchmark and everyone goes hysteric. Nothing really new happe

by hit8run 11y ago

It is so obvious what is happening at the moment. One vendor gets "busted" for "optimizing" for a benchmark and everyone goes hysteric. Nothing really new happened here. Especially for those of us working in IT. Yes it is not honorable what they did and it is cheating but I bet that every vendor optimizes for benchmarks no matter which industry is affected. VW is probably only the first company in automotive that got busted. Others will follow soon..

tptacek 11y ago
They didn't "optimize" for the benchmark. They detected that the benchmark was running, and then deliberately ran the car in a different, unrealistic mode.
- trymas 11y ago
  It's just my opinion, but every major car manufacturer produces cars which have very similar test results compared to cheating VW results (fuel efficiency and such). I mean if VW got busted, with breaking NOx values by up to 20 times, for the purpose of better acceleration, fuel efficiency and other parameters. So does it mean that others somehow cheat, but do not get caught? Or VW, the biggest car company group in the world, were producing much worse engines, than any other car manufacturer (which sells cars in US) in the world. Somehow I think it's the first one...
  - tptacek 11y ago
    I don't know, but when we think about computer hardware manufacturers "cheating" benchmarks, those vendors virtually always have plausible deniability. They game the benchmarks, optimizing part of their featureset to improve scores in ways that don't carry over to real-world use. That's not what happened here. VW has no plausible deniability in this case.
    - steve19 11y ago
      Samsung has for example been known to detect benchmarks and then over clock the cpu and gpu. That is outright cheating. ://www.extremetech.com/computing/177841-samsungs-latest-android-update-no-longer-cheats-on-benchmarks
      - duskwuff 11y ago
        Back around 2003, there was some controversy over similar benchmark cheating for graphics drivers: http://www.geek.com/games/is-nvidia-cheating-on-benchmarks-553389/ http://www.geek.com/games/is-nvidia-cheating-on-benchmarks-5...
    - wolf550e 11y ago
      "Kyle Bennett at the HardOCP found that replacing every instance of "quake" with "quack" in the Quake III executable changed the Radeon 8500's performance in the game substantially." https://techreport.com/review/3089/how-ati-drivers-optimize-quake-iii https://techreport.com/review/3089/how-ati-drivers-optimize-...
  - ethagknight 11y ago
    While entirely possible/probable that other manufactures are cheating the law, another reasonable alternative is that other cars employ more expensive exhaust management systems. VW's is the only major non-luxury small Diesel engine sold in the US.
  - boogerbear 11y ago
    Diesel is a factor here, too. The EU strategically switched to diesel in the 90's (I think) in order to meet carbon emissions standards. Diesels are more efficient. Drivers in Germany like diesels because diesel is also cheaper than gasoline, which is not true in the US. Diesel has a problematic history in the US, though, and US emissions standards are tough on diesel by-products like NOx. I would like to know how much of that is anti-competitive and how much is genuine concern for the environment. VW (and the EU in general) bet heavily on diesel. VW in particular had to cheat to meet the US emissions standards because they were under pressure to compete with other automakers to gain entry into the US market. Whether others did the same remains to be seen. US makers don't really product diesel cars, that is why they did not have this problem.
    - mikestew 11y ago
      Diesel has a problematic history in the US, though, and US emissions standards are tough on diesel by-products like NOx. I would like to know how much of that is anti-competitive and how much is genuine concern for the environment. Genuine concern. US cars were virtually crippled in the 70s due to NOx standards (power-robbing EGR valves being the main culprit, IIRC). For example, the high-end version of the Chevrolet Camaro in 1976 was getting 165bhp out of a 350ci V8 small block (for comparison, I think the plain Jane 2015 Corvette my parents just bought puts out 450bhp from the modern version of that engine). The straight six cylinder version put out less power than my 1.4L four cylinder Scion. All that smog in the LA valley back in the 70s? That was NOx, so at least in the case of California, those standards were there for a reason. Besides, small diesels were just a gleam in VW's eye when those standards were put in place, so there was nothing to anti-competitive about.
- jeromeflipo 11y ago
  They did both: they optimized for the benchmark AND they deactivated any emissions control when not in test mode.
TeMPOraL 11y ago
That's the very reason we should get really, really angry and hysteric. In fact, it wouldn't hurt to seriously damage the entire company. Yes, maybe others do that shit too. But there needs to be a message that this is what you get for cheating.
JulianMorrison 11y ago
What happened is car companies weaseled around the law and lied to the public, causing death and damage. This is more than idle "cheating", as if it were a game. This is poisoning the air.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Indeed. Also, there are environmental issues (like climate changes) and policies that depend on estimates of how much emissions is being generated where. If indeed millions of vehicles are exceeding the official value by 20x, we're in much deeper shit than we thought. Emissions are not a joke. By cheating on it on such a scale, VW (and others like it) are literally fucking with the fate of mankind.
selimthegrim 11y ago
What would an equivalent penalty have been for Oracle?
jakobegger 11y ago
But the hysteria might have an effect. Hopefully other companies are now probably scrambling to get rid of their benchmark detection code as quickly as possible. I remember that a few years back, there was a big scandal in Germany over a supermarket chain that had installed hidden security cameras to watch their employees. The press went around and asked other supermarkets if they had hidden surveillance cameras, and they all denied. Meanwhile, store managers where driving to the supermarkets in the night and removing the illegal cameras... If Volkswagen takes a big hit it will have an effect. Even if we can't catch every cheater, we might be able to scare them into playing by the rules.
- marincounty 11y ago
  In America we have cameras watching every move we make, especially in stores. Personally, I don't like that much surveillance. I have even thought about a building website where employees can voluntarily post exactly where all the video cameras are in their store. Most people, would say, "Oh, you are just providing a map for professional shop lifters?" Yea, it could be used that way, but some stores go a bit overboard on the video surveillance. I will walk out of a store with too many video cameras, or security guards. I worked security once, and was shocked on just who went to jail for shoplifting. Rich looking people got off with paying for the merchandise. Poor looking people went to jail. I had one store owner let the big spenders steal a little. The worst offenders were store employees, especially management, but that has probally changed with cameras literally everywhere?
  - ryuker16 11y ago
    I put in cameras professionally and service onsite IT infrastructure at many chains. In most retail chains, they blanket the store so few non coverage areas. Generally its not watched like a hawk except in big department stores. Panda express is a rare exception...borderline stasi. Major chains got smart about theft...some make it profitable or turn employee thieves into permanent snitches. Truth be told, nobody is watching you usually shop although people traffic cams are all the rage....

by hit8run 11y ago

tptacek 11y ago

They didn't "optimize" for the benchmark. They detected that the benchmark was running, and then deliberately ran the car in a different, unrealistic mode.

trymas 11y ago
It's just my opinion, but every major car manufacturer produces cars which have very similar test results compared to cheating VW results (fuel efficiency and such). I mean if VW got busted, with breaking NOx values by up to 20 times, for the purpose of better acceleration, fuel efficiency and other parameters. So does it mean that others somehow cheat, but do not get caught? Or VW, the biggest car company group in the world, were producing much worse engines, than any other car manufacturer (which sells cars in US) in the world. Somehow I think it's the first one...
- tptacek 11y ago
  I don't know, but when we think about computer hardware manufacturers "cheating" benchmarks, those vendors virtually always have plausible deniability. They game the benchmarks, optimizing part of their featureset to improve scores in ways that don't carry over to real-world use. That's not what happened here. VW has no plausible deniability in this case.
  - steve19 11y ago
    Samsung has for example been known to detect benchmarks and then over clock the cpu and gpu. That is outright cheating. ://www.extremetech.com/computing/177841-samsungs-latest-android-update-no-longer-cheats-on-benchmarks
    - duskwuff 11y ago
      Back around 2003, there was some controversy over similar benchmark cheating for graphics drivers: http://www.geek.com/games/is-nvidia-cheating-on-benchmarks-553389/ http://www.geek.com/games/is-nvidia-cheating-on-benchmarks-5...
  - wolf550e 11y ago
    "Kyle Bennett at the HardOCP found that replacing every instance of "quake" with "quack" in the Quake III executable changed the Radeon 8500's performance in the game substantially." https://techreport.com/review/3089/how-ati-drivers-optimize-quake-iii https://techreport.com/review/3089/how-ati-drivers-optimize-...
- ethagknight 11y ago
  While entirely possible/probable that other manufactures are cheating the law, another reasonable alternative is that other cars employ more expensive exhaust management systems. VW's is the only major non-luxury small Diesel engine sold in the US.
- boogerbear 11y ago
  Diesel is a factor here, too. The EU strategically switched to diesel in the 90's (I think) in order to meet carbon emissions standards. Diesels are more efficient. Drivers in Germany like diesels because diesel is also cheaper than gasoline, which is not true in the US. Diesel has a problematic history in the US, though, and US emissions standards are tough on diesel by-products like NOx. I would like to know how much of that is anti-competitive and how much is genuine concern for the environment. VW (and the EU in general) bet heavily on diesel. VW in particular had to cheat to meet the US emissions standards because they were under pressure to compete with other automakers to gain entry into the US market. Whether others did the same remains to be seen. US makers don't really product diesel cars, that is why they did not have this problem.
  - mikestew 11y ago
    Diesel has a problematic history in the US, though, and US emissions standards are tough on diesel by-products like NOx. I would like to know how much of that is anti-competitive and how much is genuine concern for the environment. Genuine concern. US cars were virtually crippled in the 70s due to NOx standards (power-robbing EGR valves being the main culprit, IIRC). For example, the high-end version of the Chevrolet Camaro in 1976 was getting 165bhp out of a 350ci V8 small block (for comparison, I think the plain Jane 2015 Corvette my parents just bought puts out 450bhp from the modern version of that engine). The straight six cylinder version put out less power than my 1.4L four cylinder Scion. All that smog in the LA valley back in the 70s? That was NOx, so at least in the case of California, those standards were there for a reason. Besides, small diesels were just a gleam in VW's eye when those standards were put in place, so there was nothing to anti-competitive about.
jeromeflipo 11y ago
They did both: they optimized for the benchmark AND they deactivated any emissions control when not in test mode.

TeMPOraL 11y ago

That's the very reason we should get really, really angry and hysteric. In fact, it wouldn't hurt to seriously damage the entire company. Yes, maybe others do that shit too. But there needs to be a message that this is what you get for cheating.

JulianMorrison 11y ago

What happened is car companies weaseled around the law and lied to the public, causing death and damage. This is more than idle "cheating", as if it were a game. This is poisoning the air.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
Indeed. Also, there are environmental issues (like climate changes) and policies that depend on estimates of how much emissions is being generated where. If indeed millions of vehicles are exceeding the official value by 20x, we're in much deeper shit than we thought. Emissions are not a joke. By cheating on it on such a scale, VW (and others like it) are literally fucking with the fate of mankind.

selimthegrim 11y ago

What would an equivalent penalty have been for Oracle?

jakobegger 11y ago

But the hysteria might have an effect. Hopefully other companies are now probably scrambling to get rid of their benchmark detection code as quickly as possible. I remember that a few years back, there was a big scandal in Germany over a supermarket chain that had installed hidden security cameras to watch their employees. The press went around and asked other supermarkets if they had hidden surveillance cameras, and they all denied. Meanwhile, store managers where driving to the supermarkets in the night and removing the illegal cameras... If Volkswagen takes a big hit it will have an effect. Even if we can't catch every cheater, we might be able to scare them into playing by the rules.

marincounty 11y ago
In America we have cameras watching every move we make, especially in stores. Personally, I don't like that much surveillance. I have even thought about a building website where employees can voluntarily post exactly where all the video cameras are in their store. Most people, would say, "Oh, you are just providing a map for professional shop lifters?" Yea, it could be used that way, but some stores go a bit overboard on the video surveillance. I will walk out of a store with too many video cameras, or security guards. I worked security once, and was shocked on just who went to jail for shoplifting. Rich looking people got off with paying for the merchandise. Poor looking people went to jail. I had one store owner let the big spenders steal a little. The worst offenders were store employees, especially management, but that has probally changed with cameras literally everywhere?
- ryuker16 11y ago
  I put in cameras professionally and service onsite IT infrastructure at many chains. In most retail chains, they blanket the store so few non coverage areas. Generally its not watched like a hawk except in big department stores. Panda express is a rare exception...borderline stasi. Major chains got smart about theft...some make it profitable or turn employee thieves into permanent snitches. Truth be told, nobody is watching you usually shop although people traffic cams are all the rage....