5 ms·

I respect Robert Schiller a lot. And I think there are legitimate areas where people are being manipulated into buying expensive things (recent news on pharma c

by jevgeni 11y ago

I respect Robert Schiller a lot. And I think there are legitimate areas where people are being manipulated into buying expensive things (recent news on pharma companies are a good example of this). But the book (as presented in the article) is incredibly overreaching. There is an easy solution to the phishermen/phools problem in many cases: don't buy what you are pushed by others to buy. Combine that with the proverbial "there is no free lunch" and you are more or less safe. I remember when I was a student during the heyday of the financial swing that led to the 2008 crash, I was walking thorough the Hamburg airport and a young representative of American Express caught me and tried to convince me to sign up for American Express Gold (afaik, a product tier two steps down from the mythical American Express Black). "What is your income?" she asked me. "I don't know. I'm a student, I live off 400 Euros a month." "Alright, I'll write 40 000 EUR annual income in the form." At that point not alarm bells, loud ass alarm sirens were going off in my head and I've politely disengaged and walked on. And that was the suprisingly easy way how I avoided crippling credit card debt. The problem is really not in the free market per se, but industries that don't allow robust competition and that aren't scrutinized by consumers. The first part is achieved by regulation. When was the last time utilities, energy companies, banks, and pharmaceuticals were challenged by a newcomer? The second part is made possible by us not caring what we buy or continuing buying something purely out of emotion. "What's that? Google now allows companies to directly put ultra-targeted adds in your inbox? That surely doesn't sound like legalized spam. And they say they're not evil."

ZeroGravitas 11y ago
This is not an individual problem. We may be smart enough, well-rested enough, with enough financial reserves etc. to avoid these scams in most cases, but the whole market is warped by what works on the average person. You shouldn't have even been put in that position, the lady trying to hook people into debt should have been contributing something useful to society, as should the people who get hooked into debt and end up funding the next generation of scams. I believe in the power of market competition, that's why externalities scare me so much.
bufordsharkley 11y ago
I've been trying to live by the dictum "anything advertised is not worth buying," and I've rarely been forced to find exceptions. Buy what you need, and only what you need, and one can live very comfortably.
- Swizec 11y ago
  > "anything advertised is not worth buying," Then how do you find out about new products or services? Remember, reading about it in a news paper or a news site or even a blog is also advertising. Paid for one way or another. Basically any time you hear a brand name or see a brand name or read a brand name, that's an ad. A paid-for ad. Even your friends' t-shirts and computers and cars and stuff having their brand name on them ... that's an ad. So if you never buy anything advertised, what then do you even buy?
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    This is not what GP meant and you know it, but I'll bite :). Almost everything is advertised - you might not have seen the ad, but it was definitely somewhere at some point. The question is, whether or not you chose to buy things that you've seen advertised based on the ad, even indirectly. Personally, I attach negative value to ads, i.e. every time I see the product advertised, I purposefully lower my opinion of it. (EDIT because of nitpicking - that's a heuristic and not the only rule I use; e.g. some companies are extempt if they have earned my trust personally and their advertisement are honest. My rule, born of experience that includes working with marketers, is to assume advertising is purposefully dishonest unless I know otherwise.) > So if you never buy anything advertised, what then do you even buy? So I've seen the product as used by a friend. Is that advertising? I've heard my friends who use it talk about it - is that an ad? I read third party blogs and forums on which I find recommendations by people who are experienced with the whole classes of products (hint: non-profit forums and blogs are the best). Is that an ad? If so, then the word 'advertisement' here has acquired too much meaning and we need to split it for the discussion. I am totally fine with buying things that are "advertised" by trustworthy actors who wish me well or at least are neutral to me. I reject buying on messages sent by dishonest people or those who have interest in profiting at my expense (e.g. salesmen, advertisers).
a_bonobo 11y ago
>don't buy what you are pushed by others to buy I think this is much easier said than done - your example of credit card pushers is an extreme example of pushiness. I think in the majority of cases where you buy something, you may not realise that you've been pushed to buy it. Shopping in supermarkets is one example - they make a "path" for you to follow, stuff you may not usually buy is positioned in such ways that you stumble over them, things you usually wouldn't buy are on offer, your loyalty card gives you an offer on the stuff you usually buy, more examples here: https://theconversation.com/conspiracy-or-commercialism-are-our-supermarkets-manipulating-us-16042 https://theconversation.com/conspiracy-or-commercialism-are-... You then wind up buying these things ("oh, I haven't cooked X in a while, that should be fun") without realising that the supermarket created the situation in which you thought this buy to be desirable, without explicitly pushing you.
- paganel 11y ago
  >Shopping in supermarkets is one example - they make a "path" for you to follow, stuff you may not usually buy is positioned in such ways that you That's what Ikea does, and I hate them for that. I find it to be really condescending/paternalistic in relation to its clients, on top of the manipulative "buy-this-stuff!" thing. > your loyalty card gives you an offer on the stuff you usually buy My solution, which, granted, is not so great but works for me, is to never ever accept loyalty cards from stores. I understand that that implies that sometimes I pay 5% or 10% more, but I think it more than evens up by me not buying stuff that I don't really need because of the 5-10% price reduction. I also very rarely look for special prize offers on stuff I buy day to day, like food items, it only encourages me to buy more of it.
  - jevgeni 11y ago
    That's a good solution. Additionally, it protects your privacy.

by jevgeni 11y ago

ZeroGravitas 11y ago

This is not an individual problem. We may be smart enough, well-rested enough, with enough financial reserves etc. to avoid these scams in most cases, but the whole market is warped by what works on the average person. You shouldn't have even been put in that position, the lady trying to hook people into debt should have been contributing something useful to society, as should the people who get hooked into debt and end up funding the next generation of scams. I believe in the power of market competition, that's why externalities scare me so much.

bufordsharkley 11y ago

I've been trying to live by the dictum "anything advertised is not worth buying," and I've rarely been forced to find exceptions. Buy what you need, and only what you need, and one can live very comfortably.

Swizec 11y ago
> "anything advertised is not worth buying," Then how do you find out about new products or services? Remember, reading about it in a news paper or a news site or even a blog is also advertising. Paid for one way or another. Basically any time you hear a brand name or see a brand name or read a brand name, that's an ad. A paid-for ad. Even your friends' t-shirts and computers and cars and stuff having their brand name on them ... that's an ad. So if you never buy anything advertised, what then do you even buy?
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  This is not what GP meant and you know it, but I'll bite :). Almost everything is advertised - you might not have seen the ad, but it was definitely somewhere at some point. The question is, whether or not you chose to buy things that you've seen advertised based on the ad, even indirectly. Personally, I attach negative value to ads, i.e. every time I see the product advertised, I purposefully lower my opinion of it. (EDIT because of nitpicking - that's a heuristic and not the only rule I use; e.g. some companies are extempt if they have earned my trust personally and their advertisement are honest. My rule, born of experience that includes working with marketers, is to assume advertising is purposefully dishonest unless I know otherwise.) > So if you never buy anything advertised, what then do you even buy? So I've seen the product as used by a friend. Is that advertising? I've heard my friends who use it talk about it - is that an ad? I read third party blogs and forums on which I find recommendations by people who are experienced with the whole classes of products (hint: non-profit forums and blogs are the best). Is that an ad? If so, then the word 'advertisement' here has acquired too much meaning and we need to split it for the discussion. I am totally fine with buying things that are "advertised" by trustworthy actors who wish me well or at least are neutral to me. I reject buying on messages sent by dishonest people or those who have interest in profiting at my expense (e.g. salesmen, advertisers).

a_bonobo 11y ago

>don't buy what you are pushed by others to buy I think this is much easier said than done - your example of credit card pushers is an extreme example of pushiness. I think in the majority of cases where you buy something, you may not realise that you've been pushed to buy it. Shopping in supermarkets is one example - they make a "path" for you to follow, stuff you may not usually buy is positioned in such ways that you stumble over them, things you usually wouldn't buy are on offer, your loyalty card gives you an offer on the stuff you usually buy, more examples here: https://theconversation.com/conspiracy-or-commercialism-are-our-supermarkets-manipulating-us-16042 https://theconversation.com/conspiracy-or-commercialism-are-... You then wind up buying these things ("oh, I haven't cooked X in a while, that should be fun") without realising that the supermarket created the situation in which you thought this buy to be desirable, without explicitly pushing you.

paganel 11y ago
>Shopping in supermarkets is one example - they make a "path" for you to follow, stuff you may not usually buy is positioned in such ways that you That's what Ikea does, and I hate them for that. I find it to be really condescending/paternalistic in relation to its clients, on top of the manipulative "buy-this-stuff!" thing. > your loyalty card gives you an offer on the stuff you usually buy My solution, which, granted, is not so great but works for me, is to never ever accept loyalty cards from stores. I understand that that implies that sometimes I pay 5% or 10% more, but I think it more than evens up by me not buying stuff that I don't really need because of the 5-10% price reduction. I also very rarely look for special prize offers on stuff I buy day to day, like food items, it only encourages me to buy more of it.
- jevgeni 11y ago
  That's a good solution. Additionally, it protects your privacy.