4 ms·

I see more core problems: 1) This only scales if enough people are willing to give up a portion of their storage devices. I would think twice about that for my

I see more core problems: 1) This only scales if enough people are willing to give up a portion of their storage devices. I would think twice about that for my SSDs. 2) Private customer internet connections often have a lesser upload bandwidth and that is part of the overall traffic calculation of ISPs. So the networks have to change a lot to face changing traffic requirements in this regard. That is something that will not scale with the demand of a successful protocol (see BitTorrent). Also this IPFS traffic may harmful to other traffic like gaming sessions. 3) Illegal content will be the killer. Don't expect laws to change for IPFS. No one will permanently use VPNs / anonymizers permanently for using IPFS, because some law firms will specialise on gathering endpoint information like they already do with BitTorrent.

david_ar 11y ago
1) The plan is to incentivise people with schemes like http://filecoin.io/ http://filecoin.io/ 2) Yeah, I'll admit the asymmetric nature of home internet is a bit of a hassle. I suspect you'll still require machines on the backbone seeding content, with domestic machines focussed more on providing content to local peers and/or seeding rarely accessed content. In the long-term, IPFS can help ISPs in reducing their costs (content can be grabbed from within their own network, instead of having to peer with another network for almost everything), which might help to convince them to change. 3) IPFS doesn't force you to host any content you don't want to. If you choose to host illegal content, that's your problem.
- einrealist 11y ago
  > 1) The plan is to incentivise people with schemes like http://filecoin.io/ http://filecoin.io/ Adding a market to this problem is interesting and may work, indeed. But you must not forget, that most internet connectivity plans for private customers prohibit commercial use, where the network is the essential part of that business. If people start to make money on IPFS, the ISPs will not just watch. Another aspect of this is taxes that people must pay if they make a profit, and all the requirements to operate a business. With this in mind, I am skeptical that this will scale to a size where you can say: And now it is really a distributed thing. > 2) Yeah, I'll admit the asymmetric nature of home internet is a bit of a hassle. I suspect you'll still require machines on the backbone seeding content, with domestic machines focussed more on providing content to local peers and/or seeding rarely accessed content. In the long-term, IPFS can help ISPs in reducing their costs (content can be grabbed from within their own network, instead of having to peer with another network for almost everything), which might help to convince them to change. Many ISPs already do that. CDNs use ISP data centers to bring content to customers. In fact, IPFS is not much different from their solutions. But IPFS can be a standard for content distribution. That would be a good thing. > 3) IPFS doesn't force you to host any content you don't want to. If you choose to host illegal content, that's your problem. It is not always obvious what content is legal. Copyright laws will test IPFS hard.
  - david_ar 11y ago
    1) Whilst it can be used to make a profit, it can also be used as a system to allow you to trade storage space on your own computer in return for replicating your own content on other people's machines. The more storage you provide, the more redundantly your own content is hosted on the network, and the longer you can still serve your own content whilst your own machine is offline. IANAL though, so I can't comment on the legal implications. 2) Sure, you can view it as a CDN anyone can participate in (including machines within your LAN). 3) There are plans for handling DMCA takedowns https://github.com/ipfs/gateway-dmca-denylist https://github.com/ipfs/gateway-dmca-denylist
    - einrealist 11y ago
      Well, I am thrilled to see it succeed. To me the most interesting part is IPFS acting as a CDN standard. That could make an impact, certainly.
      - synctext 11y ago
        Their incentive idea is realistic, it will work. My research team has build very similar operational systems over the past 8 years. "Decentralized credit mining in P2P systems", IFIP Networking 2015 "Towards a Peer-to-Peer Bandwidth Marketplace", 2014 "Bandwidth as a computer currency", news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/08/creating-a-computer-currency/, (PRE-Bitcoin), 2007 Their work is still early, essential thing about this type of approach is spam. You can often trick people into caching stuff. So not your typical DDoS anymore, but another resource eater. Plus there is the counterintuitive oversupply problem: <more citations to our own work> "Investment Strategies for Credit-Based P2P Communities"
  - hmartiniano 11y ago
    > [...] Copyright laws will test IPFS hard. Or the other way around...
fulafel 11y ago
You are already giving up a portion of your storage devices when you download something though. The data just sits in your browser cache, Downloads folder etc. Actually BitTorrent effectively enables arbitrage between fast download bursts and giving back long slow uploads. You trade one for the other. Your fast download burst is a momentary aggregate of many slow uploads from other users. Looks like currently IPFS is handling DMCA by having a centralised DMCA blacklist (voluntary). This should probably be solved in a more nuanced than that if IPFS really takes off but demonstrates it's not a killer problem.

david_ar 11y ago

1) The plan is to incentivise people with schemes like http://filecoin.io/ http://filecoin.io/ 2) Yeah, I'll admit the asymmetric nature of home internet is a bit of a hassle. I suspect you'll still require machines on the backbone seeding content, with domestic machines focussed more on providing content to local peers and/or seeding rarely accessed content. In the long-term, IPFS can help ISPs in reducing their costs (content can be grabbed from within their own network, instead of having to peer with another network for almost everything), which might help to convince them to change. 3) IPFS doesn't force you to host any content you don't want to. If you choose to host illegal content, that's your problem.

einrealist 11y ago
> 1) The plan is to incentivise people with schemes like http://filecoin.io/ http://filecoin.io/ Adding a market to this problem is interesting and may work, indeed. But you must not forget, that most internet connectivity plans for private customers prohibit commercial use, where the network is the essential part of that business. If people start to make money on IPFS, the ISPs will not just watch. Another aspect of this is taxes that people must pay if they make a profit, and all the requirements to operate a business. With this in mind, I am skeptical that this will scale to a size where you can say: And now it is really a distributed thing. > 2) Yeah, I'll admit the asymmetric nature of home internet is a bit of a hassle. I suspect you'll still require machines on the backbone seeding content, with domestic machines focussed more on providing content to local peers and/or seeding rarely accessed content. In the long-term, IPFS can help ISPs in reducing their costs (content can be grabbed from within their own network, instead of having to peer with another network for almost everything), which might help to convince them to change. Many ISPs already do that. CDNs use ISP data centers to bring content to customers. In fact, IPFS is not much different from their solutions. But IPFS can be a standard for content distribution. That would be a good thing. > 3) IPFS doesn't force you to host any content you don't want to. If you choose to host illegal content, that's your problem. It is not always obvious what content is legal. Copyright laws will test IPFS hard.
- david_ar 11y ago
  1) Whilst it can be used to make a profit, it can also be used as a system to allow you to trade storage space on your own computer in return for replicating your own content on other people's machines. The more storage you provide, the more redundantly your own content is hosted on the network, and the longer you can still serve your own content whilst your own machine is offline. IANAL though, so I can't comment on the legal implications. 2) Sure, you can view it as a CDN anyone can participate in (including machines within your LAN). 3) There are plans for handling DMCA takedowns https://github.com/ipfs/gateway-dmca-denylist https://github.com/ipfs/gateway-dmca-denylist
  - einrealist 11y ago
    Well, I am thrilled to see it succeed. To me the most interesting part is IPFS acting as a CDN standard. That could make an impact, certainly.
    - synctext 11y ago
      Their incentive idea is realistic, it will work. My research team has build very similar operational systems over the past 8 years. "Decentralized credit mining in P2P systems", IFIP Networking 2015 "Towards a Peer-to-Peer Bandwidth Marketplace", 2014 "Bandwidth as a computer currency", news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/08/creating-a-computer-currency/, (PRE-Bitcoin), 2007 Their work is still early, essential thing about this type of approach is spam. You can often trick people into caching stuff. So not your typical DDoS anymore, but another resource eater. Plus there is the counterintuitive oversupply problem: <more citations to our own work> "Investment Strategies for Credit-Based P2P Communities"
- hmartiniano 11y ago
  > [...] Copyright laws will test IPFS hard. Or the other way around...

fulafel 11y ago

You are already giving up a portion of your storage devices when you download something though. The data just sits in your browser cache, Downloads folder etc. Actually BitTorrent effectively enables arbitrage between fast download bursts and giving back long slow uploads. You trade one for the other. Your fast download burst is a momentary aggregate of many slow uploads from other users. Looks like currently IPFS is handling DMCA by having a centralised DMCA blacklist (voluntary). This should probably be solved in a more nuanced than that if IPFS really takes off but demonstrates it's not a killer problem.