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Meh. I can't imagine the mindset that would lead someone to sacrifice their entire existence on the pyre of working; what's the point of making big cash if you

Meh. I can't imagine the mindset that would lead someone to sacrifice their entire existence on the pyre of working; what's the point of making big cash if you've got no time or people to enjoy it with? I think that these kind of aberrant/nauseating/maladapted pathological behaviors (working insane hours, money addiction) show a bewildering lack of wisdom that is intentionally selected for among the "most competitive" firms. They can't make a robot or computer program that completely replaces these people's ability to convert life into money, yet a robot is exactly what they need, and so they find folks who are willing to be that robot and dehumanize themselves. There's always a lot of hubbub regarding Ivy league types landing in Goldman-esque shops then dying of overwork etc, and I think it's telling. Jumping through the hoops despite increasingly unreasonable demands is stereotypical behavior from these people, and it's very much to their detriment, as well as ours. Spinelessness has consequences. These are the people that society views as the elite, yet they're childish in their inability to reality-check the limits of their own lives, which results in poor mental health and suicide or drug abuse. I can't muster empathy here. They worked hard for their chance to play brutal games, and then got brutalized as a result.

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FD3SA 11y ago
Absolutely on point. What always amazes me about these "super-lemmings" is that they are so unaware that they are being thoroughly exploited. They don't understand basic economics, that if you have zero leisure time, all of your earnings are for nothing. I'm sure their goals are some variation of: "I'll work 120 hour weeks for 5 years straight to make a seven figure nest egg, then retire off the interest forever." This single variable optimization is very childish for somebody supposedly schooled in economics. Very few human decisions are based on a single variable, as we are fragile creatures with a large number of physical, emotional and mental needs that need to be satisfied on a daily basis. Let this be a warning to all the SV hopefuls: don't be a lemming. Don't sacrifice rationality for idealism. There are severe consequences.
- Bulkington 11y ago
  'Meh' this comment sequence. If I overreact, it's because these were at the top of comment thread when I caught the post, and (at the risk going Reddit on HN) this is pure Reddit ad hominem BS. Self-proclaimed übermenschen defy gravity in their own minds. Great. Have at it. Edit: Sorry, should have said 'self-imagined' rather than 'self-proclaimed.' Regardless, login in 20 years and let me know how it's worked out.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    Even with your edit, I'm still confused as to what point you're trying to make. You seem to be calling out the parent comments on behavior, but your ending sentence makes it seem like you agree. The kicker is that you appear to do both in a fairly negative way, so proponents of either side of the argument might find something to disagree with in both tone and message, which is probably netting you some down votes.
    - Bulkington 11y ago
      You're right. I was trying to moderate my own overreaction. Tl;dr: Stupid greedy bitches! No, you're a stupid bitch, can't wait to see your unemployment app--because arrogant heartless bastards tend to do well, so what happened? But I didn't want the down votes. So I didn't go there. I need to stay off HN on the weekends. Luv ya!
- onewaystreet 11y ago
  For the most part the financial industry doesn't give its people much of a choice. Finance is much more hierarchical than tech. You either work 120 hour weeks for 5 years straight and make it up to the VP/Director level or you stay as an analyst/associate (or burn out).
- curiousjorge 11y ago
  >don't be a lemming. Don't sacrifice rationality for idealism. There are severe consequences. this should be wrapped in <h1> and displayed on every page on YC. like: DISCLAIMER: MAY BE FATAL TO STARTUP FOUNDERS WHEN FORGETTING TO BE A HUMAN.
brainflake 11y ago
Wow, you can't even 'muster empathy' for people like this? I can understand how you wouldn't want to work these hours, but when the article is detailing someone who dies and your first comment is 'Meh.', that's absolutely abhorrent to me.
- deleted 11y ago
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- kbenson 11y ago
  Perhaps you are mistaking empathy for sympathy? I too cannot empathize with the people they are describing. Not only would I not let it get to that point, I could not. My personality is such that when overworked and over-stressed I naturally screw-off for a while to release stress. It doesn't always help my deadlines (which is sometimes a good thing. Sometimes you just need to say "I need more time"), but it does keep me from getting overworked for the most part. So, I feel bad for these people (I sympathize), but I don't understand them (I don't empathize).
- steve19 11y ago
  Not the OP but I struggle to sympathize with someone who takes that kind of job. I can't think up any other motivation other than greed or addiction to money/power. A friend of mine just turned down an insanely high paying Wall Street job. She told me that there was no way they could pay her that kind of salary without taking every second of her existence and every joule of her energy. A couple of week ago she went to London for less than half that salary (but still a crazy high salary considering how young she is). Only a fool would think that a WS job at twice the salary of a top London law firm did not come with ridiculous sacrifices.
  - eachro 11y ago
    You can't think of any other motivation besides greed or addiction to power? Consider 1st generation college graduates from immigrant families who have the chance to singlehandedly lift their families out of poverty by accepting these jobs. That's not greed.
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mattzito 11y ago
You can think this through a few ways. One is that they see finance jobs as desirable jobs, focus their whole lives up to that point on getting the job, get it - and find it's horrible. What do you do then? Do you go back to all the people who were really proud at your achievements and tell them you're a failure? Another is that they really do think it gets better. If they can just make it through the first four or five years, they can go from 80 to 50 hours, and then if they get to MD, they can get down to 40-50. In the meantime, they're making great money, they can enjoy what exists of their personal lives, if they just get past that first couple years. Characterizing these folks as "spineless" is perhaps accurate for some, but in the end, reductionist. A better conversation to have would be to ask: - Are the same number (proportionally) of people committing suicide in finance today the same as 15 years ago? - If not, why today? What's different about today? - What's to be done about it?
- graeme 11y ago
  >One is that they see finance jobs as desirable jobs, focus their whole lives up to that point on getting the job, get it - and find it's horrible. What do you do then? Do you go back to all the people who were really proud at your achievements and tell them you're a failure? Is it a surprise to those on that career path? I work with people applying to law school, and it's widely known that major firm jobs demand an incredible amount of your time. I think people might, mistakenly, expect "I can handle it, I like a challenge", but the gist of what a job at biglaw requires is pretty well known. I'd be surprised if finance is different. I agree spineless isn't the word, though. Motivations for entering that type of job are simply very different from what motivates people who wouldn't even consider it. I can't say exactly what it is, because I'm very far from that type. But the people I know on that path (in law) certainly are quite able to stand up for themselves. They're very confident, capable people.
  - pdglenn 11y ago
    As someone who knows many who went into this field, some who burned out and some who didn't, it's one thing to describe the challenge of 100 hour weeks, and another to live it. Biglaw is similar, but the gulf from 80 hours to 100 hours is very large.
a-dub 11y ago
Double meh. I think you're pretty much on point, until your last paragraph, which seems pretty childish itself if you ask me. Lots of people make all sorts of bad choices, and yes, sometimes they result in terrible outcomes. It's important to analyze the choices of others (which you have done, fairly well) to learn from them but it's also always important to muster empathy regardless of whatever path they have taken. Choose not to do so and you may find yourself blinded by the allure of logical oversimplification as you walk a path down towards some pretty maladaptive behaviors yourself.
samstave 11y ago
They are making big cash FOR those above them. The attitude of those above is "fuck the slaves"- even if these "slaves" make far more than the average American... So these firms don't care. Wall Street is cancer.
hugh4 11y ago
I can't escape the odour of sour grapes in discussions like these, where people who could have gone into finance reassure themselves and each other that they made the right decision to take a less lucrative path through life.
- cryoshon 11y ago
  Naturally I agree. The question is better framed thus: who has taken the more lucrative path in living their life? Who has found burgeoning vitality rather than pecuniary richness? Who has traded what is priceless for what can be used to pay other prices?
  - hugh4 11y ago
    "Better framed" in the sense "tells you what you want to hear"?
    - cryoshon 11y ago
      "focuses on actually important things rather than mere money"
- PavlovsCat 11y ago
  If you disagree with something in that comment, argue against it. Just implying baseless things about the poster instead, much less talking about "discussions like these" doesn't have the effect you may be seeking to convey.
rayiner 11y ago
> I can't imagine the mindset that would lead someone to sacrifice their entire existence on the pyre of working; what's the point of making big cash if you've got no time or people to enjoy it with? For most people who do it, it's a few-year long stint that will leave them with a chunk of money in the bank, a top business school admission, and a resume line-item that will parlay into a nice corporate finance or management gig. And if you're good at the job, working at a top bank or consulting firm is still the most direct route into the C-suite at an established company.
rhino369 11y ago
These people don't make an active choice to give their life to the company/firm. It's a series of small decisions that add up to a huge sacrifice. It's like boiling a frog. Nobody ever says when you sign up, oh, you'll have to skip Easter Dinner because you can't afford two hours off that week. The trick is to create a culture where it is not only normal, but taken for granted, that you work all the time. They work with a bunch of other smart, capable people. They can't all be wrong can they? (yes, but it's easy to see why they can't see it). So the mechanism of the slave driving isn't just someone sitting there telling you--work 100 hours a week or you are fired. It's by assigning you almost unlimited work and having a competitive environment where you look bad if you can't complete it. So these people become their own slave drivers. They stay at work late without having to be asked. They make the choice themselves. It's a sick culture, but it makes their stockholders money. You actually feel bad when taking time off because you feel like you are falling behind. Part of it is definitely the striver culture that elite education often encourages. You are supported to give full intensity and take any abuse to succeed. However, I wouldn't write off all people like this off as sheep. I bet you'd be very surprised how you react under similar pressures. And certainly some tech companies employ similar tactics and have similar cultures of encouraging people to give 100% effort. Another big factor in these sorts of jobs is that it's view as a temporary hardship. You do a stint and exit into the "good jobs" that aren't this insane. That causes people to try to tough it out. And they end up breaking before they bend.
on_ 11y ago
This sentiment is shared by many displaced blue collar workers in SV and NYC. They see finance and big tech taking jobs and ruining the economy. In the bubble, status driven workers push themselves hard until completely burned out and jaded they are stuck in a depressing cycle. On the otherside of the spectrum, I find myself markedly depressed at having no legitimate career or contributions. One can only hope to find something fulfilling and find balance.
mc32 11y ago
In some ways these people don't begin this way it don't imagine becoming what they do become and what they become is a product of the organizations they work for themselves. That is, outside of working for these organizations, these people would likely behave differently, so it's not something you can lay at their feet entirely.

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FD3SA 11y ago

Absolutely on point. What always amazes me about these "super-lemmings" is that they are so unaware that they are being thoroughly exploited. They don't understand basic economics, that if you have zero leisure time, all of your earnings are for nothing. I'm sure their goals are some variation of: "I'll work 120 hour weeks for 5 years straight to make a seven figure nest egg, then retire off the interest forever." This single variable optimization is very childish for somebody supposedly schooled in economics. Very few human decisions are based on a single variable, as we are fragile creatures with a large number of physical, emotional and mental needs that need to be satisfied on a daily basis. Let this be a warning to all the SV hopefuls: don't be a lemming. Don't sacrifice rationality for idealism. There are severe consequences.

Bulkington 11y ago
'Meh' this comment sequence. If I overreact, it's because these were at the top of comment thread when I caught the post, and (at the risk going Reddit on HN) this is pure Reddit ad hominem BS. Self-proclaimed übermenschen defy gravity in their own minds. Great. Have at it. Edit: Sorry, should have said 'self-imagined' rather than 'self-proclaimed.' Regardless, login in 20 years and let me know how it's worked out.
- kbenson 11y ago
  Even with your edit, I'm still confused as to what point you're trying to make. You seem to be calling out the parent comments on behavior, but your ending sentence makes it seem like you agree. The kicker is that you appear to do both in a fairly negative way, so proponents of either side of the argument might find something to disagree with in both tone and message, which is probably netting you some down votes.
  - Bulkington 11y ago
    You're right. I was trying to moderate my own overreaction. Tl;dr: Stupid greedy bitches! No, you're a stupid bitch, can't wait to see your unemployment app--because arrogant heartless bastards tend to do well, so what happened? But I didn't want the down votes. So I didn't go there. I need to stay off HN on the weekends. Luv ya!
onewaystreet 11y ago
For the most part the financial industry doesn't give its people much of a choice. Finance is much more hierarchical than tech. You either work 120 hour weeks for 5 years straight and make it up to the VP/Director level or you stay as an analyst/associate (or burn out).
curiousjorge 11y ago
>don't be a lemming. Don't sacrifice rationality for idealism. There are severe consequences. this should be wrapped in <h1> and displayed on every page on YC. like: DISCLAIMER: MAY BE FATAL TO STARTUP FOUNDERS WHEN FORGETTING TO BE A HUMAN.

brainflake 11y ago

Wow, you can't even 'muster empathy' for people like this? I can understand how you wouldn't want to work these hours, but when the article is detailing someone who dies and your first comment is 'Meh.', that's absolutely abhorrent to me.

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kbenson 11y ago
Perhaps you are mistaking empathy for sympathy? I too cannot empathize with the people they are describing. Not only would I not let it get to that point, I could not. My personality is such that when overworked and over-stressed I naturally screw-off for a while to release stress. It doesn't always help my deadlines (which is sometimes a good thing. Sometimes you just need to say "I need more time"), but it does keep me from getting overworked for the most part. So, I feel bad for these people (I sympathize), but I don't understand them (I don't empathize).
steve19 11y ago
Not the OP but I struggle to sympathize with someone who takes that kind of job. I can't think up any other motivation other than greed or addiction to money/power. A friend of mine just turned down an insanely high paying Wall Street job. She told me that there was no way they could pay her that kind of salary without taking every second of her existence and every joule of her energy. A couple of week ago she went to London for less than half that salary (but still a crazy high salary considering how young she is). Only a fool would think that a WS job at twice the salary of a top London law firm did not come with ridiculous sacrifices.
- eachro 11y ago
  You can't think of any other motivation besides greed or addiction to power? Consider 1st generation college graduates from immigrant families who have the chance to singlehandedly lift their families out of poverty by accepting these jobs. That's not greed.

deleted 11y ago

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mattzito 11y ago

You can think this through a few ways. One is that they see finance jobs as desirable jobs, focus their whole lives up to that point on getting the job, get it - and find it's horrible. What do you do then? Do you go back to all the people who were really proud at your achievements and tell them you're a failure? Another is that they really do think it gets better. If they can just make it through the first four or five years, they can go from 80 to 50 hours, and then if they get to MD, they can get down to 40-50. In the meantime, they're making great money, they can enjoy what exists of their personal lives, if they just get past that first couple years. Characterizing these folks as "spineless" is perhaps accurate for some, but in the end, reductionist. A better conversation to have would be to ask: - Are the same number (proportionally) of people committing suicide in finance today the same as 15 years ago? - If not, why today? What's different about today? - What's to be done about it?

graeme 11y ago
>One is that they see finance jobs as desirable jobs, focus their whole lives up to that point on getting the job, get it - and find it's horrible. What do you do then? Do you go back to all the people who were really proud at your achievements and tell them you're a failure? Is it a surprise to those on that career path? I work with people applying to law school, and it's widely known that major firm jobs demand an incredible amount of your time. I think people might, mistakenly, expect "I can handle it, I like a challenge", but the gist of what a job at biglaw requires is pretty well known. I'd be surprised if finance is different. I agree spineless isn't the word, though. Motivations for entering that type of job are simply very different from what motivates people who wouldn't even consider it. I can't say exactly what it is, because I'm very far from that type. But the people I know on that path (in law) certainly are quite able to stand up for themselves. They're very confident, capable people.
- pdglenn 11y ago
  As someone who knows many who went into this field, some who burned out and some who didn't, it's one thing to describe the challenge of 100 hour weeks, and another to live it. Biglaw is similar, but the gulf from 80 hours to 100 hours is very large.

a-dub 11y ago

Double meh. I think you're pretty much on point, until your last paragraph, which seems pretty childish itself if you ask me. Lots of people make all sorts of bad choices, and yes, sometimes they result in terrible outcomes. It's important to analyze the choices of others (which you have done, fairly well) to learn from them but it's also always important to muster empathy regardless of whatever path they have taken. Choose not to do so and you may find yourself blinded by the allure of logical oversimplification as you walk a path down towards some pretty maladaptive behaviors yourself.

samstave 11y ago

They are making big cash FOR those above them. The attitude of those above is "fuck the slaves"- even if these "slaves" make far more than the average American... So these firms don't care. Wall Street is cancer.

hugh4 11y ago

I can't escape the odour of sour grapes in discussions like these, where people who could have gone into finance reassure themselves and each other that they made the right decision to take a less lucrative path through life.

cryoshon 11y ago
Naturally I agree. The question is better framed thus: who has taken the more lucrative path in living their life? Who has found burgeoning vitality rather than pecuniary richness? Who has traded what is priceless for what can be used to pay other prices?
- hugh4 11y ago
  "Better framed" in the sense "tells you what you want to hear"?
  - cryoshon 11y ago
    "focuses on actually important things rather than mere money"
PavlovsCat 11y ago
If you disagree with something in that comment, argue against it. Just implying baseless things about the poster instead, much less talking about "discussions like these" doesn't have the effect you may be seeking to convey.

rayiner 11y ago

> I can't imagine the mindset that would lead someone to sacrifice their entire existence on the pyre of working; what's the point of making big cash if you've got no time or people to enjoy it with? For most people who do it, it's a few-year long stint that will leave them with a chunk of money in the bank, a top business school admission, and a resume line-item that will parlay into a nice corporate finance or management gig. And if you're good at the job, working at a top bank or consulting firm is still the most direct route into the C-suite at an established company.

rhino369 11y ago

These people don't make an active choice to give their life to the company/firm. It's a series of small decisions that add up to a huge sacrifice. It's like boiling a frog. Nobody ever says when you sign up, oh, you'll have to skip Easter Dinner because you can't afford two hours off that week. The trick is to create a culture where it is not only normal, but taken for granted, that you work all the time. They work with a bunch of other smart, capable people. They can't all be wrong can they? (yes, but it's easy to see why they can't see it). So the mechanism of the slave driving isn't just someone sitting there telling you--work 100 hours a week or you are fired. It's by assigning you almost unlimited work and having a competitive environment where you look bad if you can't complete it. So these people become their own slave drivers. They stay at work late without having to be asked. They make the choice themselves. It's a sick culture, but it makes their stockholders money. You actually feel bad when taking time off because you feel like you are falling behind. Part of it is definitely the striver culture that elite education often encourages. You are supported to give full intensity and take any abuse to succeed. However, I wouldn't write off all people like this off as sheep. I bet you'd be very surprised how you react under similar pressures. And certainly some tech companies employ similar tactics and have similar cultures of encouraging people to give 100% effort. Another big factor in these sorts of jobs is that it's view as a temporary hardship. You do a stint and exit into the "good jobs" that aren't this insane. That causes people to try to tough it out. And they end up breaking before they bend.

on_ 11y ago

This sentiment is shared by many displaced blue collar workers in SV and NYC. They see finance and big tech taking jobs and ruining the economy. In the bubble, status driven workers push themselves hard until completely burned out and jaded they are stuck in a depressing cycle. On the otherside of the spectrum, I find myself markedly depressed at having no legitimate career or contributions. One can only hope to find something fulfilling and find balance.

mc32 11y ago

In some ways these people don't begin this way it don't imagine becoming what they do become and what they become is a product of the organizations they work for themselves. That is, outside of working for these organizations, these people would likely behave differently, so it's not something you can lay at their feet entirely.