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If you consider a public shooting as terrorism we seem to have a lot of those: http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015 http://shootingtracker.com

If you consider a public shooting as terrorism we seem to have a lot of those: http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015 http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015 Just in 2015 you can look at all of the public shootings. Which ones are the result of terrorism and which ones are just someone going crazy and shooting into a crowd. Sure white supremacists are a problem, sure they do shootings once in a while. But I look at the list of 2015 shootings and a lot of them are unknown. Sure they are a hate crime, but can we classify it as terrorism? Is it the same as 9/11, the Boston Marathon Blast, a suicide bomber who blows up at a wedding? I live in Ferguson where Mike Brown was shot by a white police officer, was the cop racist, was it terrorism that he shot and killed Mike Brown? We've never heard the end of it, even after a grand jury didn't indict the police officer. Were the riots and looting in Ferguson terrorism as well, or was it just criminal activity? We sort of have a loose definition of what terrorism is and is not. If we consider all public shootings to be terrorism, we have to include them all. Even the ones that keep happening in Ferguson as gangs shoot at each other and that 9 year old girl was killed by a stray bullet. Is it a hate crime or terrorism, the news media likes to play with terms like that to get more clicks on their website and sell more advertising.

dalke 11y ago
"can we classify it as terrorism?" The definition used does not appear to be based on hate crimes, nor on public shooting, but on cases the government classified as terrorism related crimes. The linked-to page is dated Jun 24, 2015. It cites a New America study, and links to a site where the content no longer displays anything useful. Archive.org to the rescue - https://web.archive.org/web/20150212164145/http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/deadly-attacks https://web.archive.org/web/20150212164145/http://securityda... . The data set is: == Deadly Jihadist Attacks == Plot name Persons killed 2014 Washington and New Jersey Killing Spree 4 2014 Oklahoma Beheading 1 2013 Boston Marathon Bombing 4 2009 Little Rock Shooting 1 2009 Fort Hood Shooting 13 2006 Seattle Jewish Federation Shooting 1 2002 Los Angeles Airport Shooting 2 == Deadly Right Wing Attacks == 2014 Tallahassee Police Ambush 1 2014 Las Vegas Police Ambush 3 2014 Kansas Jewish Center Shooting 3 2014 Blooming Grove Police Shooting 1 2012 Tri-State Killing Spree 4 2012 St. John's Parish Police Ambush 2 2012 Sikh Temple Shooting 6 2011 FEAR Militia 3 2010 Carlisle, PA Murder 1 2010 Austin, TX Plane Attack 1 2009 Pittsburgh Police Shootings 3 2009 Holocaust Museum Shooting 1 2009 George Tiller Assassination 1 2009 Ft. Walton, FL Shooting 2 2009 Flores Murders, Pima County, AZ 2 2009 Brockton, MA Murders 2 2008 Knoxville, TN Church Shooting 2 2004 Tulsa OK, Bank Robbery 1 The methodology is: > The dataset seeks to include all American citizens and residents indicted or convicted for terrorism crimes who were inspired by or associated with Al Qaeda and its affiliated groups as well as those citizens and residents who were killed before they could be indicted but have been widely reported to have worked with or been inspired by al-Qaeda and its affiliated groups. The dataset does not include extremists tied to violent Islamist groups that do not target the United States as part of al-Qaeda’s war, for example Hamas and Hezbollah, nor does it include individuals who were acquitted or charged with lesser crimes, for example immigration violations, that cannot be shown to involve some kind of terrorism-related crime. > The dataset also includes individuals inspired by right wing, left wing, and other non-Jihadist political ideologies, who have been indicted for terrorism related crimes. The data on non-Jihadist extremists is less developed than the data on Jihadist extremists but where available it is included to provide a comparison across ideologies. The dataset relies mainly upon court documents, wire service reports, and news reports as sources.
- orionblastar 11y ago
  Thank you I was wondering where they got the data from. Shootings happen a lot in cities like Chicago every day, but they aren't always considered terrorism. Just crimes. I had no idea right-wingers did a lot of terrorism, a bank robbery is terrorism? I don't know how they determine that. How do they determine the person is right-wing if they kill themselves during or after the attack? Are all white supremacists right-wing in nature? I find it odd that people like Trump get a lot of support while making racist statements, does this mean right-wingers are more racist and there are a lot more white supremacists out there we have to worry about?
  - dalke 11y ago
    You know, it is possible for you to do the same research as I. The source information was in the original article, and details of the bank robbery is a web search away. The 2004 Tulsa OK, Bank Robbery was from a father/son pair who wanted "to get money to be able to retaliate against the government because of its role in the standoffs at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, in 1992, and Waco, Texas, in 1993." - http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/domestic-extremism-terrorism/c/father-and-son-convicted-on-robbery-murder-anti-government-plot.html http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/domestic-extremism-terrori... Quoting http://www.securityinfowatch.com/news/10594789/guilty-father-and-son-convicted-of-murder-of-bank-security-guard http://www.securityinfowatch.com/news/10594789/guilty-father... : > Wade Lay, who is not an attorney but who is handling his own legal defense, testified Monday that the bank money was sought "to buy adequate weapons." ... > From the witness stand, Christopher Lay acknowledged Friday that he had compiled a list of people who he thought were responsible for the deaths of about 80 Branch Davidians, who died in 1993 in a fiery end to a 51-day standoff with law enforcement agents and federal officials in Waco, Texas. > That "hit list" had 15 names designated as the "enemy," Drummond said. > Wade Lay said that "we planned on holding the people who murdered those people accountable," because the government had not. I'm certain you can investigate the specific details to your own satisfaction. Regarding cases where the killer is dead, well, the evidence for the Tallahassee Police Ambush is rather weak: http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/2015/01/09/curtis-wade-holley/21354561/ http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/2015/01/09/curti... . The site https://herestherealnews.wordpress.com/2015/08/29/debunking-new-americas-terrorism-study/ https://herestherealnews.wordpress.com/2015/08/29/debunking-... rejects many of the non-jihadist examples. Do note that any such post-hoc qualifiers also change other statistics, eg, how many of the terror plots listed at https://web.archive.org/web/20150214055837/http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/terror-plots https://web.archive.org/web/20150214055837/http://securityda... are no longer valid plots under more stringent guidelines? That "herestherealnews" page shows the problem with post hoc re-classification. Towards the end it says: > The study also makes no mention of leftist terrorism, like the murder of Jim Pouillion, murders of NYPD officers, the murder of two journalists a few days ago and the massacre of 8 white “racists” in 2010. There are of course the riots in Ferguson and Baltimore and various mob attacks in retaliation for police killings as well. but at the top it says: > So according to data from this study the average american muslim is about 39 times more likely to commit a terrorist murder than the average white american. If they did the analysis to completion, they would have established that non-jihadist terrorism in the US was even higher than what this study concluded, giving a ratio below 39x. You'll also note that the list is certain to be complete with regard to jihadist terrorism, but may leave out some forms of domestic crime that may be regarded as terrorism, such as the 2009 assassination of George Tiller by an anti-abortionist. Thus, factors like "39x" can't really be taken at face value but rather as an upper bound.

dalke 11y ago

"can we classify it as terrorism?" The definition used does not appear to be based on hate crimes, nor on public shooting, but on cases the government classified as terrorism related crimes. The linked-to page is dated Jun 24, 2015. It cites a New America study, and links to a site where the content no longer displays anything useful. Archive.org to the rescue - https://web.archive.org/web/20150212164145/http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/deadly-attacks https://web.archive.org/web/20150212164145/http://securityda... . The data set is: == Deadly Jihadist Attacks == Plot name Persons killed 2014 Washington and New Jersey Killing Spree 4 2014 Oklahoma Beheading 1 2013 Boston Marathon Bombing 4 2009 Little Rock Shooting 1 2009 Fort Hood Shooting 13 2006 Seattle Jewish Federation Shooting 1 2002 Los Angeles Airport Shooting 2 == Deadly Right Wing Attacks == 2014 Tallahassee Police Ambush 1 2014 Las Vegas Police Ambush 3 2014 Kansas Jewish Center Shooting 3 2014 Blooming Grove Police Shooting 1 2012 Tri-State Killing Spree 4 2012 St. John's Parish Police Ambush 2 2012 Sikh Temple Shooting 6 2011 FEAR Militia 3 2010 Carlisle, PA Murder 1 2010 Austin, TX Plane Attack 1 2009 Pittsburgh Police Shootings 3 2009 Holocaust Museum Shooting 1 2009 George Tiller Assassination 1 2009 Ft. Walton, FL Shooting 2 2009 Flores Murders, Pima County, AZ 2 2009 Brockton, MA Murders 2 2008 Knoxville, TN Church Shooting 2 2004 Tulsa OK, Bank Robbery 1 The methodology is: > The dataset seeks to include all American citizens and residents indicted or convicted for terrorism crimes who were inspired by or associated with Al Qaeda and its affiliated groups as well as those citizens and residents who were killed before they could be indicted but have been widely reported to have worked with or been inspired by al-Qaeda and its affiliated groups. The dataset does not include extremists tied to violent Islamist groups that do not target the United States as part of al-Qaeda’s war, for example Hamas and Hezbollah, nor does it include individuals who were acquitted or charged with lesser crimes, for example immigration violations, that cannot be shown to involve some kind of terrorism-related crime. > The dataset also includes individuals inspired by right wing, left wing, and other non-Jihadist political ideologies, who have been indicted for terrorism related crimes. The data on non-Jihadist extremists is less developed than the data on Jihadist extremists but where available it is included to provide a comparison across ideologies. The dataset relies mainly upon court documents, wire service reports, and news reports as sources.

orionblastar 11y ago
Thank you I was wondering where they got the data from. Shootings happen a lot in cities like Chicago every day, but they aren't always considered terrorism. Just crimes. I had no idea right-wingers did a lot of terrorism, a bank robbery is terrorism? I don't know how they determine that. How do they determine the person is right-wing if they kill themselves during or after the attack? Are all white supremacists right-wing in nature? I find it odd that people like Trump get a lot of support while making racist statements, does this mean right-wingers are more racist and there are a lot more white supremacists out there we have to worry about?
- dalke 11y ago
  You know, it is possible for you to do the same research as I. The source information was in the original article, and details of the bank robbery is a web search away. The 2004 Tulsa OK, Bank Robbery was from a father/son pair who wanted "to get money to be able to retaliate against the government because of its role in the standoffs at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, in 1992, and Waco, Texas, in 1993." - http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/domestic-extremism-terrorism/c/father-and-son-convicted-on-robbery-murder-anti-government-plot.html http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/domestic-extremism-terrori... Quoting http://www.securityinfowatch.com/news/10594789/guilty-father-and-son-convicted-of-murder-of-bank-security-guard http://www.securityinfowatch.com/news/10594789/guilty-father... : > Wade Lay, who is not an attorney but who is handling his own legal defense, testified Monday that the bank money was sought "to buy adequate weapons." ... > From the witness stand, Christopher Lay acknowledged Friday that he had compiled a list of people who he thought were responsible for the deaths of about 80 Branch Davidians, who died in 1993 in a fiery end to a 51-day standoff with law enforcement agents and federal officials in Waco, Texas. > That "hit list" had 15 names designated as the "enemy," Drummond said. > Wade Lay said that "we planned on holding the people who murdered those people accountable," because the government had not. I'm certain you can investigate the specific details to your own satisfaction. Regarding cases where the killer is dead, well, the evidence for the Tallahassee Police Ambush is rather weak: http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/2015/01/09/curtis-wade-holley/21354561/ http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/2015/01/09/curti... . The site https://herestherealnews.wordpress.com/2015/08/29/debunking-new-americas-terrorism-study/ https://herestherealnews.wordpress.com/2015/08/29/debunking-... rejects many of the non-jihadist examples. Do note that any such post-hoc qualifiers also change other statistics, eg, how many of the terror plots listed at https://web.archive.org/web/20150214055837/http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/terror-plots https://web.archive.org/web/20150214055837/http://securityda... are no longer valid plots under more stringent guidelines? That "herestherealnews" page shows the problem with post hoc re-classification. Towards the end it says: > The study also makes no mention of leftist terrorism, like the murder of Jim Pouillion, murders of NYPD officers, the murder of two journalists a few days ago and the massacre of 8 white “racists” in 2010. There are of course the riots in Ferguson and Baltimore and various mob attacks in retaliation for police killings as well. but at the top it says: > So according to data from this study the average american muslim is about 39 times more likely to commit a terrorist murder than the average white american. If they did the analysis to completion, they would have established that non-jihadist terrorism in the US was even higher than what this study concluded, giving a ratio below 39x. You'll also note that the list is certain to be complete with regard to jihadist terrorism, but may leave out some forms of domestic crime that may be regarded as terrorism, such as the 2009 assassination of George Tiller by an anti-abortionist. Thus, factors like "39x" can't really be taken at face value but rather as an upper bound.