8 ms·

The Sketchy World of Fake Bike Gear

56 points by tcdent 11y ago

kawera 11y ago
Interesting. But I cannot stop thinking of http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html
- tajen 11y ago
  What an excellent, yet dated article. It comes from a time when blogging was a craft. Now there's not a blog I read without wondering "Is it neutral, or was the author influenced, or is it a PR piece, or does the full blog belong to a bigger agenda"...
resoluteteeth 11y ago
There are some pretty obvious PR motivations for Specialized here: 1) Try to dissuade people from buying cheap Chinese frames (not just the counterfeit frames in the article, but the higher quality ones that have been gaining popularity on various internet forums). 2) Justify Specialized's extreme litigiousness with respect to trademarks (which has gotten it a lot of negative press) by spreading the idea that it's motivated by the goal of protecting its customers from unsafe products. On the other hand, I'm sure counterfeits are really a problem. It's probably tempting for Chinese companies that are making a pittance selling bike parts to other companies to make copies to get prices that are many times higher.
- gburt 11y ago
  "Surprisingly, Tombragel’s fake fork passed impact testing—but barely. If this had been a real Specialized, it would be re-engineered to pass by a higher margin." This line is when I decided this was probably a PR placement. I guess that maybe took me a bit longer than most, but it just feels so stilted. "We passed our test, but we'd want to pass more." - then why did it 'pass'?
  - x0x0 11y ago
    That struck me as well, though as a consumer, you'd like to hope that gear has been engineered to exceed tests, not to the minimum. Though perhaps the minimum should be increased. The article also contained examples of catastrophic failures in use of handlebars and catastrophic failures in testing of helmets.
    - elithrar 11y ago
      > Though perhaps the minimum should be increased. It may have been—which is what makes the angle in this PR piece so questionable. The minimum might be a value that is equivalent to a 200kg rider jumping off a 15ft cliff and not breaking the forks. (or it may not be, but I'm sure you get my point: Specialized just wants to seed doubt regardless of quality)
- Vexs 11y ago
  I agree- I've seen some amazing Chinese products across all hobbies recently, which are oftentimes almost as good, if not better with a little modification. That being said, counterfeit products are almost universally worse than their real counterparts. I would not be surprised to see Chinese products that are identical in quality to their genuine counterparts within the next couple years, especially for high-end products.
  - josephlord 11y ago
    I'm sure there will be some great brands coming but when they are ready they will spend money and really develop brands. While they are selling literally no-name or no-history brand names that are churned rapidly there is almost no cost in getting a bad reputation, just start a new brand. This doesn't mean that brands never fail or do wrong (cough VW) but the fact that they have something to lose is a good thing. Also you are more likely to hear if there are huge problems with a product.
Zigurd 11y ago
This article is an incoherent mess. No hard numbers. No characterization of the problem: Is it factory seconds being stolen and sold? Is it contract manufacturers selling US OEM products they are contractually disallowed from selling? It seems unlikely that a frame sold in extremely limited quantities would be reverse engineered and copied. It is more likely that OEMs have lost control of their suppliers while chasing cheaper costs. Boo fricken hoo.
- mschuster91 11y ago
  > It seems unlikely that a frame sold in extremely limited quantities would be reverse engineered and copied. The more limited and sought-after a product is, the higher is the incentive for a faker.
lnanek2 11y ago
I ordered a highly rated head light and tail light the other day off amazon. When it came everything was super cheap thin plastic and the head light wouldn't turn on at all even with fresh batteries. The tail light turned on once, then my finger pushed the button through the body. Apparently there's a common amazon hack by sellers where they sell the real thing for a while to get good ratings, then switch to selling cheap knock offs...
- rahimnathwani 11y ago
  It's not just that. Many items have multiple sellers. When you choose a seller, you don't know what the ratings for that seller/item combo. So, the seller may have good ratings from unrelated products, but be selling poor quality versions of this particular product. The product itself may have 'good' versions currently on sale by other sellers on Amazon.
everyone 11y ago
Meh. If your not a pro competing in the tour de france then there will be almost no performance difference between the $18,000 bike described and a c $600 bike. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4MIEkIBZs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4MIEkIBZs When cycling your power/weight ratio is determined by you. Its obvious the purpose of these $1000+ bikes is to be status symbols for rich idiots.
- Asbostos 11y ago
  Yep. If you use a bike for exercise, then you want it to be hard work. If you use it for moving around, then add a motor and battery. Lightweight frames are only for artificial competitions. Then what are you competing at? Who can afford the most expensive equipment?
  - mmmBacon 11y ago
    Yeah there's a bit more to it than that. Lighter stuff allows you to go further with less energy. Lighter wheels and tires make a really big difference as does tire rolling resistance. In something like a century (100 mike ride) a lighter bike may make the difference between finishing and not finishing. Also wind resistance goes up as the square of velocity so it's harder to go faster than it is to simply ride around a clunky heavy bike. There is a saying in cycling: strong,light, cheap. Pick two.
    - Asbostos 11y ago
      All those factors can be addressed with a small hub motor and battery which together is much cheaper than the high-efficiency parts. If you set the power level right, you could even tune it to give the same reduction in effort for the rider. Batteries and motors are more energy efficient than humans, so it's good from a more pure energy point of view too.
      - analog31 11y ago
        To me, that seems to add a lot of weight, cost, complexity, maintenance (battery charging and replacement), and failure modes (running out of juice) when you could just spend a couple more bucks for a lighter bike that's also more fun to ride.
harshaw 11y ago
I'd be interesting to understand where these issues fall in terms of international agreements. Basically, where is the international pressure to not let China sell shit that will cause injuries? The world's main carbon manufacturing base (for bikes at least) seems to be in Taiwan. It is not surprise that when you have all the tools (Mandrel's, carbon sheets, etc) and expertise that there is a class of people building knockoffs. I don't think you could find many people in the US even remotely capable of making a knock-off.
- johansch 11y ago
  Government regulation moves way too slow for stuff like this. Any pressure against China will need to be well-defined, meaning it will take a decade for some committee to figure out regulations.
nl 11y ago
This is something I know a little about. I used to run a moderately popular website cataloging unbranded Chinese framesets, and builds using them. This article rides that line between expressing genuine problems and trying to scare people. Yes, there are plenty of fake frames around. Yes, I'm sure some EBay carbon handlebars are unsafe. But at the same time there are lots (more?) Chinese frames around that aren't "fake", but are just less costly. For example, there is the Hong-Fu FM-066/069, which is kind of a cross between a Cervelo R5 and a Cannondale SuperSix, except around ~$500. It's light (around ~800 grams) and has a good reputation for quality. Interestingly, one of the big selling points is that they are quicker to market with features than the major brands. Until last year if you wanted a Cervelo R3/R5 with Di2 cable routing you had to drill holes in the frame yourself. The FM-66 could be ordered like that, or with conventional cables, and with your choice of bottom bracket (instead of the annoying BBRight thing Cervelo uses). Same with disc brakes: the FM-069 is a road disc bike, out two years before Cervelo or Cannondale managed it.
- gozo 11y ago
  Yeah, I think this is a good example of consumer versus hacker mindset. Much of the attraction of Chinese frames is that, at least in Europe, frames can cost as much as an assembled bike. So these cheap frames enable people to build bikes from parts without it being horribly expensive. As far as I know some frames are copied, but generally doesn't have copyright protection anyway (somewhat depending on country). "When it says 'email for color/graphics', it likely means the seller has omitted those details to evade brand security" Or, like you point out, it actually means you get a choice. What's the link to your site?
- 001sky 11y ago
  at some stage all of the implicit knowledge is or will be actually sitting over in taiwan/china. many high end frames are performing in similar peformance buckets, despite the stickers on them. And the number of facilities is much smaller than the number of brands. This is like generic drugs at some stage, all the US prices are high subsidizing low cost elsewehere. grey market importation is basically a sensible solution. the incumbents will rely on brand name and safety scare tactics to limit the arbitrage. but its probably worth seeing thru this. carbon reinforce plastic is ultimately just fancy plastic. there is also no need for an 800g frameset, most punters are better served by 1100g of more durable and longer-lasting design. That is, those people buying retail. If your stuff is free or grey market or pro-deal its another story...amortization of capital expense is entirely diffent math in that case.
mindslight 11y ago
> Sure enough, you have a frame that looks dead-on like it’s a Venge,” he recalls. “You could tell it was Chinese-direct. But I’d bought things from overseas on eBay, so I was comfortable with it.” This guy straight up says he was "comfortable" buying a counterfeit frame (anything coming direct from China with a non-China trademark), so what exactly is the point of this article? He played around and lost. China, being an entire country, has some great stuff and some absolute shite. If bike parts are anything like electronics, I'd recommend buying unbranded or Chinese-branded stuff. Inspect the quality thoroughly on receipt. And if you want the ability to return poor quality, pay a little overhead and buy from a US middleman who is incentivized to do the QA legwork for you.
- Asbostos 11y ago
  China actually has export controls to protect the rest of the world from its bad products. Like you say, it must have a Chinese brand otherwise it's either a fake or illegally obtained (out the back door of the factory).
  - mindslight 11y ago
    Ah, this is actually formalized? My intuition says that Chinese brands would know how to police through the appropriate channels, but it's not surprising it's an actually an official thing. What I can't really figure out is how to reliably get the "better" unbranded parts (small quantities, using ebay/aliexpress). The only indicator seems to be how consumer-targeted the particular item is. Electronic components / assemblies have been fine, while 4 out of 4 phone chargers I tested were pure garbage. Obviously creating a relationship with a manufacturer is the way to go for larger batches, which is another reason buying from a US importer makes sense. Then again I've got to wonder when I see the same-looking unbranded items in US retail stores, if those ones actually meet their ratings or if the type of people buying them will never verify.
- bsimpson 11y ago
  H+Son is a well-respected Chinese brand of bike rims. I've had American bike shops recommend them to me in the past. I ended up choosing American-made Velocity rims for my bike, but there are definitely competitive Chinese bike brands.
TickleMeHellNo 11y ago
This whole article is a shill piece for specialized, and for the LBS racket as a whole. How is this contributing anything?
p1mrx 11y ago
This problem has a straightforward technical solution: manufacturers should put a unique serial number on every product, and encourage customers to validate the number after purchasing. A counterfeit will either have a bogus number that's not in the database, or a cloned number that shows up in two or more places. I noticed that Spigen uses this approach, after buying a $9 case for my phone.
- Asbostos 11y ago
  Yes. For such a high priced item, this should be easily economical. Some medicines already do this. It seems kind of obvious.
  - snotrockets 11y ago
    Campagnolo attaches such a code to their wheels: http://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/Support/certilogo http://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/Support/certilogo
  - rconti 11y ago
    They almost certainly do. My Trek carbon fiber bike (~$3000 fully built brand new in 2008) was the lowest-end full-carbon bike they had that was still made in the US. It has a registration # (on the bottom bracket I believe). In fact, every bike I'm aware of does, for registering with the police in case of theft.
- rahimnathwani 11y ago
  Many consumer electronic products have a manufacturer's warranty which requires registration, and the serial number is one of the mandatory pieces of information. Specialised doesn't do this exactly. Their bike registration form doesn't provide any incentive except that they'll inform you of any important news about your bike: http://www.specialized.com/us/en/support/bike-registration http://www.specialized.com/us/en/support/bike-registration
bickfordb 11y ago
There are certainly novel designs and fancy welding, but bike frames are essentially tubes of carbon fiber / steel formed or welded together with the manufacturers brand sticker slapped on top. Seems like this could be ideal for a Warby Parker like entrant.
- diziet 11y ago
  Except for the tremendous forces racing bicycles exerts on the tubes and welds of carbon fiber / steel, that could cause catastrophic failure in the most unexpected moment.
- jdietrich 11y ago
  There are plenty of Warby Parker equivalents, and they get a brief mention in the article. Lots of western companies sell "open mold" parts, where an OEM sells generic components for resellers to apply their own branding to. Some of these resellers have excellent reputations - here in the UK, Planet X are extremely popular amongst serious racers. There is a crucial difference between these products and an unbranded product from Aliexpress. Western sellers are obliged to perform product testing, they have a brand name to defend, and they can be sued.
- rconti 11y ago
  You misunderstand carbon fiber. Steel and aluminum are a bit different. But yes, there are many "off brand" names that are well-respected and trustworthy -- Motobecane, for example.
acomjean 11y ago
When I ride I like to have some idea that my bike isn't going to fall apart. I safety check before my commute. Bikes & helmets are something you kinda don't want to fail when in traffic. Bikes are commodities now, except on the high end. Thus the cheap stuff can be sold as expensive. These are complex machines. TREK had a recall for an issue that caused a bunch of injuries. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/qr-disk-brake.html http://www.sheldonbrown.com/qr-disk-brake.html "Ideally, we would want bicycles which are properly assembled, adjusted and maintained to be free of problems which lead to sudden, catastrophic, unexpected failure. Any mechanical system will deteriorate sooner or later, and so an incipient failure should preferably give warning in advance, or be preceded by another, more benign failure which puts the part out of service, or be so very unlikely that it is not of serious concern, or a second system should be able to take over from one which failed. A properly-adjusted enclosed-cam quick release assembly on a bicycle with no front disk brake meets this test, by being very unlikely to fail."
bsimpson 11y ago
It would have been nice for them to explain what they meant by "open mold" counterfeiting. That this article is the 2nd result on Google if you search for those terms tells me it isn't well-defined elsewhere.
toss1 11y ago
This article is too mild, not exaggerated or a commercial advocacy piece as some commenters assert. I know lot about carbon fiber. I own and run a business designing and hands-on fabricating carbon fiber components and products for aerospace/defense, top motorsports teams, UAV/Drones, sporting goods and more. (started this 12yrs ago after one of the software companies I co-founded sold). I was a competitive cyclist and still Mtn Bike a lot and race occasionally. Obviously, I think carbon components are fantastic. I could make my own, but I do not. Here's why: ENGINEERED MATERIALS: Carbon Fiber composites are an engineered material. This is great because the strength is very specific, and we can put the strength exactly where we need it, and omit the strength -and the weight- where it is not needed. This also means that the materials MUST be properly engineered to yield acceptable performance. This is NOT just fancy plastic or "black aluminum". Get the engineering right, and you have amazing parts that are both stronger and lighter than steel or aluminum. It is not unusual for us to outperform an aluminum product with a 40-50% weight savings and higher strength numbers. BUT, get the engineering wrong, and a carbon part that looks massively overbuilt, thicker and heavier than the equivalent steel part, will fail catastrophically. Moreover, there are THOUSANDS of combinations of grades of carbon fibers and epoxies, all appropriate for different applications, and these must also be properly selected. So, even if you obtain the exact molds used by Specalized to make their frame, without knowing the exact materials and design, it would be very difficult to make a frame that performed properly. FABRICATION PROCESS: The fabrication process is critical. - Everything must be cleaned properly. - Every single one of the hundreds of pieces of carbon fiber must be cut properly, then placed properly in the mold, in the correct sequence, and the correct orientation. - The mold components and compression tools must be placed properly and achieve and maintain the designed pressures. - The heat and cooling cycle must be applied properly. - The demolding must occur properly. - Any post-cure cycling must occur properly. - Any secondary bonding must be prepared and executed properly. Any failure in these hundreds of steps, and the frame will have a flaw that can hurt of kill someone. (not that it necessarily will, but it easily could -- simply consider hitting bumps in a fast descent -- that will be the exact point of maximum load, most likely to cause failure, and now the cyclist is Wyle E. Coyote... not fun). The fabrication process is analogous to having to ship software where we cannot make an error-corrected perfect digital copy, but each new copy must be hand-transcribed before shipping, and of course cannot be destructively tested. How well would you trust bootleg software running your heart pacemaker if it had to be copied the way monks copied bibles in the middle ages? TESTING PROCESS: Both the engineering design and the fabrication process must be subjected to rigorous testing. On the engineering side, even the most sophisticated modeling software needs real-world test validation of even basic parts models, as the number of variables is huge, and an initial design often does not yield the expected results. On the production side, every step of the process must be carefully designed, and verified to accurately and repeatedly produce parts that perform as engineered. BOTTOM LINE: This is obviously just skimming the surface, but the bottom line is that there are hundreds of opportunities for failures to creep in even when trying to do it right, and ridiculous opportunities for counterfeiters to cut corners. And most of them will NOT be readily visible to casual inspection of the product. I could, with my knowledge and access to my own shop, make a pair of carbon fiber handlebars to ride tomorrow. But I wouldn't ride them further than around the parking lot. We'd need to make a big investment in designing then fabricating and testing scores of units before having the confidence to take one for a real ride. But, standing in the shoes of a desperate counterfeiter in China, where ripping-off IP is the ethical norm, and who will be selling parts to unseen and probably despised customers on the other side of the globe, and who probably doesn't understand enough about the engineering pitfalls anyway ... ... sure, just copy some molds, buy any old carbon, and start slapping it in and cooking it, just make sure it looks good. I've seen even legit parts come in from Asia with crazy shortcuts, never mind the counterfeit stuff. I've also personally witnessed those parts causing disasters. As a rider, just seeing this crap coming into the US is truly frightening. Even the legit parts are cause for worry -- are the US guys actually riding herd on the Chinese QC well enough? Probably. The counterfeit or low-market stuff? Forget it -- you literally couldn't pay me enough to ride it anywhere further than across the parking lot. Anyone who considers doing so is really ignorant of the real risks. It's just physics, and physics does not care about you.

56 points by tcdent 11y ago

kawera 11y ago

Interesting. But I cannot stop thinking of http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html

tajen 11y ago
What an excellent, yet dated article. It comes from a time when blogging was a craft. Now there's not a blog I read without wondering "Is it neutral, or was the author influenced, or is it a PR piece, or does the full blog belong to a bigger agenda"...

resoluteteeth 11y ago

There are some pretty obvious PR motivations for Specialized here: 1) Try to dissuade people from buying cheap Chinese frames (not just the counterfeit frames in the article, but the higher quality ones that have been gaining popularity on various internet forums). 2) Justify Specialized's extreme litigiousness with respect to trademarks (which has gotten it a lot of negative press) by spreading the idea that it's motivated by the goal of protecting its customers from unsafe products. On the other hand, I'm sure counterfeits are really a problem. It's probably tempting for Chinese companies that are making a pittance selling bike parts to other companies to make copies to get prices that are many times higher.

gburt 11y ago
"Surprisingly, Tombragel’s fake fork passed impact testing—but barely. If this had been a real Specialized, it would be re-engineered to pass by a higher margin." This line is when I decided this was probably a PR placement. I guess that maybe took me a bit longer than most, but it just feels so stilted. "We passed our test, but we'd want to pass more." - then why did it 'pass'?
- x0x0 11y ago
  That struck me as well, though as a consumer, you'd like to hope that gear has been engineered to exceed tests, not to the minimum. Though perhaps the minimum should be increased. The article also contained examples of catastrophic failures in use of handlebars and catastrophic failures in testing of helmets.
  - elithrar 11y ago
    > Though perhaps the minimum should be increased. It may have been—which is what makes the angle in this PR piece so questionable. The minimum might be a value that is equivalent to a 200kg rider jumping off a 15ft cliff and not breaking the forks. (or it may not be, but I'm sure you get my point: Specialized just wants to seed doubt regardless of quality)
Vexs 11y ago
I agree- I've seen some amazing Chinese products across all hobbies recently, which are oftentimes almost as good, if not better with a little modification. That being said, counterfeit products are almost universally worse than their real counterparts. I would not be surprised to see Chinese products that are identical in quality to their genuine counterparts within the next couple years, especially for high-end products.
- josephlord 11y ago
  I'm sure there will be some great brands coming but when they are ready they will spend money and really develop brands. While they are selling literally no-name or no-history brand names that are churned rapidly there is almost no cost in getting a bad reputation, just start a new brand. This doesn't mean that brands never fail or do wrong (cough VW) but the fact that they have something to lose is a good thing. Also you are more likely to hear if there are huge problems with a product.

Zigurd 11y ago

This article is an incoherent mess. No hard numbers. No characterization of the problem: Is it factory seconds being stolen and sold? Is it contract manufacturers selling US OEM products they are contractually disallowed from selling? It seems unlikely that a frame sold in extremely limited quantities would be reverse engineered and copied. It is more likely that OEMs have lost control of their suppliers while chasing cheaper costs. Boo fricken hoo.

mschuster91 11y ago
> It seems unlikely that a frame sold in extremely limited quantities would be reverse engineered and copied. The more limited and sought-after a product is, the higher is the incentive for a faker.

lnanek2 11y ago

I ordered a highly rated head light and tail light the other day off amazon. When it came everything was super cheap thin plastic and the head light wouldn't turn on at all even with fresh batteries. The tail light turned on once, then my finger pushed the button through the body. Apparently there's a common amazon hack by sellers where they sell the real thing for a while to get good ratings, then switch to selling cheap knock offs...

rahimnathwani 11y ago
It's not just that. Many items have multiple sellers. When you choose a seller, you don't know what the ratings for that seller/item combo. So, the seller may have good ratings from unrelated products, but be selling poor quality versions of this particular product. The product itself may have 'good' versions currently on sale by other sellers on Amazon.

everyone 11y ago

Meh. If your not a pro competing in the tour de france then there will be almost no performance difference between the $18,000 bike described and a c $600 bike. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4MIEkIBZs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF4MIEkIBZs When cycling your power/weight ratio is determined by you. Its obvious the purpose of these $1000+ bikes is to be status symbols for rich idiots.

Asbostos 11y ago
Yep. If you use a bike for exercise, then you want it to be hard work. If you use it for moving around, then add a motor and battery. Lightweight frames are only for artificial competitions. Then what are you competing at? Who can afford the most expensive equipment?
- mmmBacon 11y ago
  Yeah there's a bit more to it than that. Lighter stuff allows you to go further with less energy. Lighter wheels and tires make a really big difference as does tire rolling resistance. In something like a century (100 mike ride) a lighter bike may make the difference between finishing and not finishing. Also wind resistance goes up as the square of velocity so it's harder to go faster than it is to simply ride around a clunky heavy bike. There is a saying in cycling: strong,light, cheap. Pick two.
  - Asbostos 11y ago
    All those factors can be addressed with a small hub motor and battery which together is much cheaper than the high-efficiency parts. If you set the power level right, you could even tune it to give the same reduction in effort for the rider. Batteries and motors are more energy efficient than humans, so it's good from a more pure energy point of view too.
    - analog31 11y ago
      To me, that seems to add a lot of weight, cost, complexity, maintenance (battery charging and replacement), and failure modes (running out of juice) when you could just spend a couple more bucks for a lighter bike that's also more fun to ride.

harshaw 11y ago

I'd be interesting to understand where these issues fall in terms of international agreements. Basically, where is the international pressure to not let China sell shit that will cause injuries? The world's main carbon manufacturing base (for bikes at least) seems to be in Taiwan. It is not surprise that when you have all the tools (Mandrel's, carbon sheets, etc) and expertise that there is a class of people building knockoffs. I don't think you could find many people in the US even remotely capable of making a knock-off.

johansch 11y ago
Government regulation moves way too slow for stuff like this. Any pressure against China will need to be well-defined, meaning it will take a decade for some committee to figure out regulations.

nl 11y ago

This is something I know a little about. I used to run a moderately popular website cataloging unbranded Chinese framesets, and builds using them. This article rides that line between expressing genuine problems and trying to scare people. Yes, there are plenty of fake frames around. Yes, I'm sure some EBay carbon handlebars are unsafe. But at the same time there are lots (more?) Chinese frames around that aren't "fake", but are just less costly. For example, there is the Hong-Fu FM-066/069, which is kind of a cross between a Cervelo R5 and a Cannondale SuperSix, except around ~$500. It's light (around ~800 grams) and has a good reputation for quality. Interestingly, one of the big selling points is that they are quicker to market with features than the major brands. Until last year if you wanted a Cervelo R3/R5 with Di2 cable routing you had to drill holes in the frame yourself. The FM-66 could be ordered like that, or with conventional cables, and with your choice of bottom bracket (instead of the annoying BBRight thing Cervelo uses). Same with disc brakes: the FM-069 is a road disc bike, out two years before Cervelo or Cannondale managed it.

gozo 11y ago
Yeah, I think this is a good example of consumer versus hacker mindset. Much of the attraction of Chinese frames is that, at least in Europe, frames can cost as much as an assembled bike. So these cheap frames enable people to build bikes from parts without it being horribly expensive. As far as I know some frames are copied, but generally doesn't have copyright protection anyway (somewhat depending on country). "When it says 'email for color/graphics', it likely means the seller has omitted those details to evade brand security" Or, like you point out, it actually means you get a choice. What's the link to your site?
001sky 11y ago
at some stage all of the implicit knowledge is or will be actually sitting over in taiwan/china. many high end frames are performing in similar peformance buckets, despite the stickers on them. And the number of facilities is much smaller than the number of brands. This is like generic drugs at some stage, all the US prices are high subsidizing low cost elsewehere. grey market importation is basically a sensible solution. the incumbents will rely on brand name and safety scare tactics to limit the arbitrage. but its probably worth seeing thru this. carbon reinforce plastic is ultimately just fancy plastic. there is also no need for an 800g frameset, most punters are better served by 1100g of more durable and longer-lasting design. That is, those people buying retail. If your stuff is free or grey market or pro-deal its another story...amortization of capital expense is entirely diffent math in that case.

mindslight 11y ago

> Sure enough, you have a frame that looks dead-on like it’s a Venge,” he recalls. “You could tell it was Chinese-direct. But I’d bought things from overseas on eBay, so I was comfortable with it.” This guy straight up says he was "comfortable" buying a counterfeit frame (anything coming direct from China with a non-China trademark), so what exactly is the point of this article? He played around and lost. China, being an entire country, has some great stuff and some absolute shite. If bike parts are anything like electronics, I'd recommend buying unbranded or Chinese-branded stuff. Inspect the quality thoroughly on receipt. And if you want the ability to return poor quality, pay a little overhead and buy from a US middleman who is incentivized to do the QA legwork for you.

Asbostos 11y ago
China actually has export controls to protect the rest of the world from its bad products. Like you say, it must have a Chinese brand otherwise it's either a fake or illegally obtained (out the back door of the factory).
- mindslight 11y ago
  Ah, this is actually formalized? My intuition says that Chinese brands would know how to police through the appropriate channels, but it's not surprising it's an actually an official thing. What I can't really figure out is how to reliably get the "better" unbranded parts (small quantities, using ebay/aliexpress). The only indicator seems to be how consumer-targeted the particular item is. Electronic components / assemblies have been fine, while 4 out of 4 phone chargers I tested were pure garbage. Obviously creating a relationship with a manufacturer is the way to go for larger batches, which is another reason buying from a US importer makes sense. Then again I've got to wonder when I see the same-looking unbranded items in US retail stores, if those ones actually meet their ratings or if the type of people buying them will never verify.
bsimpson 11y ago
H+Son is a well-respected Chinese brand of bike rims. I've had American bike shops recommend them to me in the past. I ended up choosing American-made Velocity rims for my bike, but there are definitely competitive Chinese bike brands.

TickleMeHellNo 11y ago

This whole article is a shill piece for specialized, and for the LBS racket as a whole. How is this contributing anything?

p1mrx 11y ago

This problem has a straightforward technical solution: manufacturers should put a unique serial number on every product, and encourage customers to validate the number after purchasing. A counterfeit will either have a bogus number that's not in the database, or a cloned number that shows up in two or more places. I noticed that Spigen uses this approach, after buying a $9 case for my phone.

Asbostos 11y ago
Yes. For such a high priced item, this should be easily economical. Some medicines already do this. It seems kind of obvious.
- snotrockets 11y ago
  Campagnolo attaches such a code to their wheels: http://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/Support/certilogo http://www.campagnolo.com/WW/en/Support/certilogo
- rconti 11y ago
  They almost certainly do. My Trek carbon fiber bike (~$3000 fully built brand new in 2008) was the lowest-end full-carbon bike they had that was still made in the US. It has a registration # (on the bottom bracket I believe). In fact, every bike I'm aware of does, for registering with the police in case of theft.
rahimnathwani 11y ago
Many consumer electronic products have a manufacturer's warranty which requires registration, and the serial number is one of the mandatory pieces of information. Specialised doesn't do this exactly. Their bike registration form doesn't provide any incentive except that they'll inform you of any important news about your bike: http://www.specialized.com/us/en/support/bike-registration http://www.specialized.com/us/en/support/bike-registration

bickfordb 11y ago

There are certainly novel designs and fancy welding, but bike frames are essentially tubes of carbon fiber / steel formed or welded together with the manufacturers brand sticker slapped on top. Seems like this could be ideal for a Warby Parker like entrant.

diziet 11y ago
Except for the tremendous forces racing bicycles exerts on the tubes and welds of carbon fiber / steel, that could cause catastrophic failure in the most unexpected moment.
jdietrich 11y ago
There are plenty of Warby Parker equivalents, and they get a brief mention in the article. Lots of western companies sell "open mold" parts, where an OEM sells generic components for resellers to apply their own branding to. Some of these resellers have excellent reputations - here in the UK, Planet X are extremely popular amongst serious racers. There is a crucial difference between these products and an unbranded product from Aliexpress. Western sellers are obliged to perform product testing, they have a brand name to defend, and they can be sued.
rconti 11y ago
You misunderstand carbon fiber. Steel and aluminum are a bit different. But yes, there are many "off brand" names that are well-respected and trustworthy -- Motobecane, for example.

acomjean 11y ago

When I ride I like to have some idea that my bike isn't going to fall apart. I safety check before my commute. Bikes & helmets are something you kinda don't want to fail when in traffic. Bikes are commodities now, except on the high end. Thus the cheap stuff can be sold as expensive. These are complex machines. TREK had a recall for an issue that caused a bunch of injuries. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/qr-disk-brake.html http://www.sheldonbrown.com/qr-disk-brake.html "Ideally, we would want bicycles which are properly assembled, adjusted and maintained to be free of problems which lead to sudden, catastrophic, unexpected failure. Any mechanical system will deteriorate sooner or later, and so an incipient failure should preferably give warning in advance, or be preceded by another, more benign failure which puts the part out of service, or be so very unlikely that it is not of serious concern, or a second system should be able to take over from one which failed. A properly-adjusted enclosed-cam quick release assembly on a bicycle with no front disk brake meets this test, by being very unlikely to fail."

bsimpson 11y ago

It would have been nice for them to explain what they meant by "open mold" counterfeiting. That this article is the 2nd result on Google if you search for those terms tells me it isn't well-defined elsewhere.

toss1 11y ago

This article is too mild, not exaggerated or a commercial advocacy piece as some commenters assert. I know lot about carbon fiber. I own and run a business designing and hands-on fabricating carbon fiber components and products for aerospace/defense, top motorsports teams, UAV/Drones, sporting goods and more. (started this 12yrs ago after one of the software companies I co-founded sold). I was a competitive cyclist and still Mtn Bike a lot and race occasionally. Obviously, I think carbon components are fantastic. I could make my own, but I do not. Here's why: ENGINEERED MATERIALS: Carbon Fiber composites are an engineered material. This is great because the strength is very specific, and we can put the strength exactly where we need it, and omit the strength -and the weight- where it is not needed. This also means that the materials MUST be properly engineered to yield acceptable performance. This is NOT just fancy plastic or "black aluminum". Get the engineering right, and you have amazing parts that are both stronger and lighter than steel or aluminum. It is not unusual for us to outperform an aluminum product with a 40-50% weight savings and higher strength numbers. BUT, get the engineering wrong, and a carbon part that looks massively overbuilt, thicker and heavier than the equivalent steel part, will fail catastrophically. Moreover, there are THOUSANDS of combinations of grades of carbon fibers and epoxies, all appropriate for different applications, and these must also be properly selected. So, even if you obtain the exact molds used by Specalized to make their frame, without knowing the exact materials and design, it would be very difficult to make a frame that performed properly. FABRICATION PROCESS: The fabrication process is critical. - Everything must be cleaned properly. - Every single one of the hundreds of pieces of carbon fiber must be cut properly, then placed properly in the mold, in the correct sequence, and the correct orientation. - The mold components and compression tools must be placed properly and achieve and maintain the designed pressures. - The heat and cooling cycle must be applied properly. - The demolding must occur properly. - Any post-cure cycling must occur properly. - Any secondary bonding must be prepared and executed properly. Any failure in these hundreds of steps, and the frame will have a flaw that can hurt of kill someone. (not that it necessarily will, but it easily could -- simply consider hitting bumps in a fast descent -- that will be the exact point of maximum load, most likely to cause failure, and now the cyclist is Wyle E. Coyote... not fun). The fabrication process is analogous to having to ship software where we cannot make an error-corrected perfect digital copy, but each new copy must be hand-transcribed before shipping, and of course cannot be destructively tested. How well would you trust bootleg software running your heart pacemaker if it had to be copied the way monks copied bibles in the middle ages? TESTING PROCESS: Both the engineering design and the fabrication process must be subjected to rigorous testing. On the engineering side, even the most sophisticated modeling software needs real-world test validation of even basic parts models, as the number of variables is huge, and an initial design often does not yield the expected results. On the production side, every step of the process must be carefully designed, and verified to accurately and repeatedly produce parts that perform as engineered. BOTTOM LINE: This is obviously just skimming the surface, but the bottom line is that there are hundreds of opportunities for failures to creep in even when trying to do it right, and ridiculous opportunities for counterfeiters to cut corners. And most of them will NOT be readily visible to casual inspection of the product. I could, with my knowledge and access to my own shop, make a pair of carbon fiber handlebars to ride tomorrow. But I wouldn't ride them further than around the parking lot. We'd need to make a big investment in designing then fabricating and testing scores of units before having the confidence to take one for a real ride. But, standing in the shoes of a desperate counterfeiter in China, where ripping-off IP is the ethical norm, and who will be selling parts to unseen and probably despised customers on the other side of the globe, and who probably doesn't understand enough about the engineering pitfalls anyway ... ... sure, just copy some molds, buy any old carbon, and start slapping it in and cooking it, just make sure it looks good. I've seen even legit parts come in from Asia with crazy shortcuts, never mind the counterfeit stuff. I've also personally witnessed those parts causing disasters. As a rider, just seeing this crap coming into the US is truly frightening. Even the legit parts are cause for worry -- are the US guys actually riding herd on the Chinese QC well enough? Probably. The counterfeit or low-market stuff? Forget it -- you literally couldn't pay me enough to ride it anywhere further than across the parking lot. Anyone who considers doing so is really ignorant of the real risks. It's just physics, and physics does not care about you.