5 ms·

>The only way a country moves forward is through innovation Military conquest works pretty well, as does being located on top of valuable natural resources. Wh

>The only way a country moves forward is through innovation Military conquest works pretty well, as does being located on top of valuable natural resources. What is the purpose of spouting such a platitude?

nine_k 11y ago
A very successful military conquest of 1920–1940s did not exactly help Japan in the long run. Neither did it work for Spain in 1500s.
- veidr 11y ago
  I hate to hijack this thread even further, but: losing WWII helped Japan immensely in the long run.
  - ekianjo 11y ago
    This is ridiculous. They were already a powerful country before WWII, they would have become way more powerful by now if they had not got involved in WWII the way they did. They got massively destroyed and it took them a very long time just to rebuild the country. I guess you never heard about the broken window parable.
    - veidr 11y ago
      They might arguably have become a more powerful country, but I don't think that necessarily equates to being better off. After renouncing (being forced to renounce) war as a mechanism of policy, Japan has enjoyed seven decades of peace and the fastest rise from bombed-out shithole full of malnourished kids to the second largest economy in the world with one of the highest standards of living. Now China has risen, and overtaken Japan in economic and military terms, and it's a good case in point: certainly more powerful than Japan as a nation, but you can't breathe the air, you don't have rule of law, you can't vote, or even reproduce as you might see fit. Not a real great outcome for the average Chinese person, though I guess it beats starving. My point was that Japanese militarist totalitarianism, awful and evil as that was, ended up being a shortcut to a level of peace and prosperity that is, as far as I know, unprecedented.
      - JesperRavn 11y ago
        On the other hand, China did have the equivalent of losing a war and living under a foreign imposed rule, which was the aftermath of the Opium Wars. The result was about 60 million deaths, mostly due to the breakdown of law and order. Due to that, Chinese are probably a bit wary of benevolent Europeans/Americans running their country for them. The current regime has huge problems, but it is stable and not completely oblivious to the wellbeing of ordinary people.
      - nine_k 11y ago
        I remember that air quality in Tokyo was quite bad in 1960s: http://metropolitantokyo.blogspot.com/2011/09/air-pollution-in-tokyo.html http://metropolitantokyo.blogspot.com/2011/09/air-pollution-... This is more of a sign of a still-industrial economy, as opposed to a post-industrial one.
      - ekianjo 11y ago
        A few corrections : > but you can't breathe the air yes you can, air is not polluted in ALL of China. > you don't have rule of law frankly examples in Western democraties where the powerful beat the small guys are numerous. And look at DMCA and shit like that constantly used with abuse. > you can't reproduce as you might see fit. you can now have more than 1 kid, if that is what you were referring to. This changed since last year if I remember correctly. And on top of that in the countryside many folks have several kids but don’t declare them. > Not a real great outcome for the average Chinese person, though I guess it beats starving. If you actually talk with Chinese people, they are actually very happy with the amount of progress most have seen in their lifetime.
        codedokode 11y ago
        So you would prefer living in China without DMCA over a Western country?
        ekianjo 11y ago
        Have you lived in China ? It ain't as bad as all the articles make it out to be. I would not want to live there forever, but if I have to choose between the US and China for example, I'd choose China as a first destination anytime.
psykovsky 11y ago
> ...as does being located on top of valuable natural resources. Tell that to Africa.
codedokode 11y ago
Military conquest doesn't work in a long run because enslaved people are very unmotivated. Economical conquest works much better. Natural resources are limited and not very profitable except for oil and gas.

nine_k 11y ago

A very successful military conquest of 1920–1940s did not exactly help Japan in the long run. Neither did it work for Spain in 1500s.

veidr 11y ago
I hate to hijack this thread even further, but: losing WWII helped Japan immensely in the long run.
- ekianjo 11y ago
  This is ridiculous. They were already a powerful country before WWII, they would have become way more powerful by now if they had not got involved in WWII the way they did. They got massively destroyed and it took them a very long time just to rebuild the country. I guess you never heard about the broken window parable.
  - veidr 11y ago
    They might arguably have become a more powerful country, but I don't think that necessarily equates to being better off. After renouncing (being forced to renounce) war as a mechanism of policy, Japan has enjoyed seven decades of peace and the fastest rise from bombed-out shithole full of malnourished kids to the second largest economy in the world with one of the highest standards of living. Now China has risen, and overtaken Japan in economic and military terms, and it's a good case in point: certainly more powerful than Japan as a nation, but you can't breathe the air, you don't have rule of law, you can't vote, or even reproduce as you might see fit. Not a real great outcome for the average Chinese person, though I guess it beats starving. My point was that Japanese militarist totalitarianism, awful and evil as that was, ended up being a shortcut to a level of peace and prosperity that is, as far as I know, unprecedented.
    - JesperRavn 11y ago
      On the other hand, China did have the equivalent of losing a war and living under a foreign imposed rule, which was the aftermath of the Opium Wars. The result was about 60 million deaths, mostly due to the breakdown of law and order. Due to that, Chinese are probably a bit wary of benevolent Europeans/Americans running their country for them. The current regime has huge problems, but it is stable and not completely oblivious to the wellbeing of ordinary people.
    - nine_k 11y ago
      I remember that air quality in Tokyo was quite bad in 1960s: http://metropolitantokyo.blogspot.com/2011/09/air-pollution-in-tokyo.html http://metropolitantokyo.blogspot.com/2011/09/air-pollution-... This is more of a sign of a still-industrial economy, as opposed to a post-industrial one.
    - ekianjo 11y ago
      A few corrections : > but you can't breathe the air yes you can, air is not polluted in ALL of China. > you don't have rule of law frankly examples in Western democraties where the powerful beat the small guys are numerous. And look at DMCA and shit like that constantly used with abuse. > you can't reproduce as you might see fit. you can now have more than 1 kid, if that is what you were referring to. This changed since last year if I remember correctly. And on top of that in the countryside many folks have several kids but don’t declare them. > Not a real great outcome for the average Chinese person, though I guess it beats starving. If you actually talk with Chinese people, they are actually very happy with the amount of progress most have seen in their lifetime.
      - codedokode 11y ago
        So you would prefer living in China without DMCA over a Western country?
        ekianjo 11y ago
        Have you lived in China ? It ain't as bad as all the articles make it out to be. I would not want to live there forever, but if I have to choose between the US and China for example, I'd choose China as a first destination anytime.

psykovsky 11y ago

> ...as does being located on top of valuable natural resources. Tell that to Africa.

codedokode 11y ago

Military conquest doesn't work in a long run because enslaved people are very unmotivated. Economical conquest works much better. Natural resources are limited and not very profitable except for oil and gas.