5 ms·

I was talking to someone just out of college the other day and she was adamant that reverse racism doesn't exist. To her it isn't racism unless it happens to a

I was talking to someone just out of college the other day and she was adamant that reverse racism doesn't exist. To her it isn't racism unless it happens to a group lower in a power ordering. The exact position of groups in that ordering wasn't clear but it was clear that Asians were higher than other groups. Identity politics is a very dehumanizing philosophy. It tells us that we must be seen through a label we can't change: our race, gender, or orientation.

huac 11y ago
You have it backwards - just because others see us through a particular, limiting lens, doesn't mean that we are defined in that way. Understanding that these stereotypes exist is in no way dehumanizing.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- golemotron 11y ago
  Maybe you should ask the people referred to in the article.
cousin_it 11y ago
Yeah. The ultimate goal of such redefinitions is to imply that some groups' problems are inherently more important, more worth addressing. But that's not true. All suffering is suffering.
- caseysoftware 11y ago
  It has become the Oppression Special Olympics.
- memonkey 11y ago
  I don't know. Is going to jail based on your race suffering more or less than not getting into Harvard because of your race? I tend to agree with OP's comment, but one important aspect is left out when talking about things like this: Class.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - omonra 11y ago
    I'd like to call out your casual mentioning of someone's race being responsible for them going to jail. That's not really what happens - rather that someone breaks the law and goes to jail. I'm not aware of law-abiding members of any race going to jail (while the article demonstrates that Asians who do everything same as whites or blacks have no chance of getting into Harvard).
    - jackpirate 11y ago
      Everyone breaks the law. Some people get disproportionate punishment. So while your statement is true, it entirely misses the point.
      - omonra 11y ago
        This is a factually unsupported assertion. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/miarticle.htm?id=4582#.VhC1fWSrS2w http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/miarticle.htm?id=458...
        jackpirate 11y ago
        From your article: > In 2006, the black arrest rate for most crimes was two to nearly three times blacks’ representation in the population. Blacks constituted 39.3% of all violent-crime arrests, including 56.3% of all robbery and 34.5% of all aggravated-assault arrests, and 29.4% of all property-crime arrests. This paragraph is presupposing that the arrest process is fair to assert that blacks deserve their higher prison sentences.
        omonra 11y ago
        I'm not sure if you missed these two points: "From 1976 to 2005, blacks committed more than 52% of all murders in America." and "The advocates acknowledge such crime data only indirectly: by charging bias on the part of the system’s decision makers. As Obama suggested in the Martin Luther King debate, police, prosecutors and judges treat blacks and whites differently “for the same crime.” But in fact, cops don’t over-arrest blacks and ignore white criminals. The race of criminals reported by crime victims matches arrest data. No one has ever come up with a plausible argument as to why crime victims would be biased in their reports." The simple truth of the matter (which our entire discussion boils down to) is that blacks commit crime at a rate vastly exceeding other groups. For more stats please see: http://www.infowars.com/black-crime-facts-that-the-white-liberal-media-darent-talk-about/ http://www.infowars.com/black-crime-facts-that-the-white-lib...
chiaro 11y ago
That's just a misunderstanding over the definition. Racism as a subject of study in the humanities refers to these societal power structures, and it was this definition and usage she was probably cleaving to. The world would definitely be a better if we didn't recognize labels, but since I kind of hit the trifecta as far as race, gender etc goes, I fit into society just fine. Those who feel marginalised by society for one reason or another can find solidarity and reaffirmation of their identity using these labels, and I can't really deny them that.
- golemotron 11y ago
  It's very hard to believe that this redefinition of the word racism was done innocently. On its face racism is act of distinguishing people by race for favor or disfavor. When it is redefined as it has been in the humanities it leaves a vacuum. There's no longer a word for the concept that racism originally referred to.
  - kenjackson 11y ago
    Its true there is no single word, but I think in this circle they use terms for this. Racial discrimination or prejudice.
  - chiaro 11y ago
    It's not taking anything away--both definitions are valid and commonly used. It's just up to the pair of you to realize you're talking past each other. She'd probably have no trouble agreeing that white people can be the target of bigotry just as you'd agree that white people are rarely at the pointy end of broader systemic injustices, at least in this society. Much as it may be fun, I'd caution against attributing it some kind of conspiracy of sociologists.
    - smokeyj 11y ago
      > both definitions are valid and commonly used In my experience there's one definition used by the general public, and another used by social justice warrior academic types to prove they have a more mindful world view than you. But that's just my experience.
bobthechef 11y ago
I may be mincing words, but I've heard the last sentence frequently enough that I have to respond. What does the ability to change a "label" have to do with anything? Just because you can't change something doesn't mean it isn't relevant. Just because something can be changed doesn't mean it is.
auganov 11y ago
Identity politics unquestionably applied to individuals is indeed dehumanizing. I hope we move towards an opt-in culture, where it's considered bad behavior to attach identities to individuals without them opting in.
canjobear 11y ago
The claim of identity politics isn't that we must be seen through those labels, but rather that in present society we _actually are_ always seen through those labels and we should acknowledge it in our language. Only by acknowledging it can we begin to fight it. I don't necessarily agree or disagree, but that's the claim as I understand it.
heptathorp 11y ago
Well, she's half-right. There is no such thing as reverse racism. It's just plain racism.

huac 11y ago

You have it backwards - just because others see us through a particular, limiting lens, doesn't mean that we are defined in that way. Understanding that these stereotypes exist is in no way dehumanizing.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
golemotron 11y ago
Maybe you should ask the people referred to in the article.

cousin_it 11y ago

Yeah. The ultimate goal of such redefinitions is to imply that some groups' problems are inherently more important, more worth addressing. But that's not true. All suffering is suffering.

caseysoftware 11y ago
It has become the Oppression Special Olympics.
memonkey 11y ago
I don't know. Is going to jail based on your race suffering more or less than not getting into Harvard because of your race? I tend to agree with OP's comment, but one important aspect is left out when talking about things like this: Class.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- omonra 11y ago
  I'd like to call out your casual mentioning of someone's race being responsible for them going to jail. That's not really what happens - rather that someone breaks the law and goes to jail. I'm not aware of law-abiding members of any race going to jail (while the article demonstrates that Asians who do everything same as whites or blacks have no chance of getting into Harvard).
  - jackpirate 11y ago
    Everyone breaks the law. Some people get disproportionate punishment. So while your statement is true, it entirely misses the point.
    - omonra 11y ago
      This is a factually unsupported assertion. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/miarticle.htm?id=4582#.VhC1fWSrS2w http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/miarticle.htm?id=458...
      - jackpirate 11y ago
        From your article: > In 2006, the black arrest rate for most crimes was two to nearly three times blacks’ representation in the population. Blacks constituted 39.3% of all violent-crime arrests, including 56.3% of all robbery and 34.5% of all aggravated-assault arrests, and 29.4% of all property-crime arrests. This paragraph is presupposing that the arrest process is fair to assert that blacks deserve their higher prison sentences.
        omonra 11y ago
        I'm not sure if you missed these two points: "From 1976 to 2005, blacks committed more than 52% of all murders in America." and "The advocates acknowledge such crime data only indirectly: by charging bias on the part of the system’s decision makers. As Obama suggested in the Martin Luther King debate, police, prosecutors and judges treat blacks and whites differently “for the same crime.” But in fact, cops don’t over-arrest blacks and ignore white criminals. The race of criminals reported by crime victims matches arrest data. No one has ever come up with a plausible argument as to why crime victims would be biased in their reports." The simple truth of the matter (which our entire discussion boils down to) is that blacks commit crime at a rate vastly exceeding other groups. For more stats please see: http://www.infowars.com/black-crime-facts-that-the-white-liberal-media-darent-talk-about/ http://www.infowars.com/black-crime-facts-that-the-white-lib...

chiaro 11y ago

That's just a misunderstanding over the definition. Racism as a subject of study in the humanities refers to these societal power structures, and it was this definition and usage she was probably cleaving to. The world would definitely be a better if we didn't recognize labels, but since I kind of hit the trifecta as far as race, gender etc goes, I fit into society just fine. Those who feel marginalised by society for one reason or another can find solidarity and reaffirmation of their identity using these labels, and I can't really deny them that.

golemotron 11y ago
It's very hard to believe that this redefinition of the word racism was done innocently. On its face racism is act of distinguishing people by race for favor or disfavor. When it is redefined as it has been in the humanities it leaves a vacuum. There's no longer a word for the concept that racism originally referred to.
- kenjackson 11y ago
  Its true there is no single word, but I think in this circle they use terms for this. Racial discrimination or prejudice.
- chiaro 11y ago
  It's not taking anything away--both definitions are valid and commonly used. It's just up to the pair of you to realize you're talking past each other. She'd probably have no trouble agreeing that white people can be the target of bigotry just as you'd agree that white people are rarely at the pointy end of broader systemic injustices, at least in this society. Much as it may be fun, I'd caution against attributing it some kind of conspiracy of sociologists.
  - smokeyj 11y ago
    > both definitions are valid and commonly used In my experience there's one definition used by the general public, and another used by social justice warrior academic types to prove they have a more mindful world view than you. But that's just my experience.

bobthechef 11y ago

I may be mincing words, but I've heard the last sentence frequently enough that I have to respond. What does the ability to change a "label" have to do with anything? Just because you can't change something doesn't mean it isn't relevant. Just because something can be changed doesn't mean it is.

auganov 11y ago

Identity politics unquestionably applied to individuals is indeed dehumanizing. I hope we move towards an opt-in culture, where it's considered bad behavior to attach identities to individuals without them opting in.

canjobear 11y ago

The claim of identity politics isn't that we must be seen through those labels, but rather that in present society we _actually are_ always seen through those labels and we should acknowledge it in our language. Only by acknowledging it can we begin to fight it. I don't necessarily agree or disagree, but that's the claim as I understand it.

heptathorp 11y ago

Well, she's half-right. There is no such thing as reverse racism. It's just plain racism.