4 ms·

Nobody has ever done any great writing while stoned. Even Hunter S. Thompson, one of the most pro-drug writers ever, said that pot is the only drug that prevent

by hristov 11y ago

Nobody has ever done any great writing while stoned. Even Hunter S. Thompson, one of the most pro-drug writers ever, said that pot is the only drug that prevents him from doing any good work. And no, people should not try LSD. LSD leads to a high danger of psychosis or schizophrenia, and that is no fun at all. It is better not to risk it. Just because you may have gotten lucky so far, there is no reason to invite others to take spin on the russian roulette. If you have any mental illness in your family, it is strongly advisable you steer clear, but even if you don't, it is not worth the risk.

pstuart 11y ago
> LSD leads to a high danger of psychosis or schizophrenia Citations please. It's a powerful drug but has incredible value when used properly. If you're going to start wringing your hands over dangerous drugs, start with the killers of today: alcohol, tobacco, and prescription drugs.
- hristov 11y ago
  http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM196512022732302 http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM196512022732302
  - Cryptokeeper 11y ago
    That article is 50 years old. Perhaps this one from 2013: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0063972 http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.... "21,967 respondents (13.4% weighted) reported lifetime psychedelic use. There were no significant associations between lifetime use of any psychedelics, lifetime use of specific psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, peyote), or past year use of LSD and increased rate of any of the mental health outcomes. Rather, in several cases psychedelic use was associated with lower rate of mental health problems."
    - thrwyycombinatr 11y ago
      But temporary schizophrenia is very common. Cmon guys, this is ridiculous. I've seen it so many times. It literally re-wires your brain. And yes, temporary schizophrenia can be extremely dangerous. This is something no one can argue. I hate pedants.
      - throwawaymonoid 11y ago
        Your brain literally re-wires itself constantly. There's no such thing as "temporary schizophrenia." If you're referring to acute psychosis, as you seemingly experienced, then yes it's certainly a possible side effect--though never a permanent one. Bad experiences are usually triggered by an uncomfortable setting, or a dose for which you were not prepared. I'm sorry that was your experience, but concerned your reaction doesn't add to the scientific discussion. LSD increases glutamate and modulates the 5HTA (seratonin) subtypes, as well as having modulatory effects on D2 (dopamine) receptors--it alters conscious processes and lowers the inhibitory threshold of the action potential, allowing "new" neuronal pathways to develop. While we don't know the specific pharmacokinetic MOA, we do know it has a favorable toxicological and therapeutic profile, and that the content of one's hallucinations depend far more on the individual and the setting than the substance. Yes, it can be dangerous. Yes, you can take steps to effectively minimize the danger like you do in every other area of your life (seatbelts? helmets?). Like anything there's a cost-benefit ratio for each individual to consider--are you willing to risk a potentially terrifying experience for a chance at novel insight? I think that's a choice everyone should be able to make for themselves.
  - MichaelGG 11y ago
    Do you have the text of it? Wikipedia has a small quote which doesn't back it up: "The 3 patients in whom an extended psychosis followed a single ingestion of LSD clearly had long standing schizophrenia..." The page on it is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD_and_schizophrenia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD_and_schizophrenia - there doesn't seem to be any strong studies. A small increased risk is possible/likely. On the flip side, many folks seem to feel LSD is one of the most meaningful experiences they've had in life. It seems reasonable that healthy people should seek out such an experience in a controlled, safe, environment.
- user_0001 11y ago
  Don't forget the bigger killers * crossing the road * driving a car * choking on <insert any food here> etc etc
digi_owl 11y ago
> said that pot is the only drug that prevents him from doing any good work. And this is where i suspect the big anti-pot push is coming from. With alcohol you can go out for some beers after work, get buzzed, get up the next day with a nagging ache, and still come back to work. With pot it is more likely that you go "fuck work!". End result, pot is not good for business. Looking across history, there is a whole mess or barely concealed agenda aimed at maintaining a workforce. Even the modern school system is perhaps put into place to produce and maintain a more useful workforce.
- Bouncingsoul1 11y ago
  For me it is quite the opposite, I prefer to stay at home if I have nagging headache after having to much, on the other hand I never had such an issue with pot.
- Broken_Hippo 11y ago
  This isn't true for me. I'm more likely to get a good night sleep and wake up well-rested, without a headache ready to go to work after a night of smoking. I'm more likely to call off work if I am feeling sick from drinking the night before: In fact, I'm more likely to simply not go out after work to drink. I can smoke some and do my household stuff in the evening, walk to a coffee shop afterwards and talk with folks, draw, read, etc, most of which is impossible when drinking. I'm gonna guess absenteeism is higher among chronic alcohol users than it is among chronic pot users, but I don't have the citation to back it up.
Cthulhu_ 11y ago
To everyone, you should read The Episode (http://www.stilldrinking.org/the-episode-part-1 http://www.stilldrinking.org/the-episode-part-1), a series of blog posts by Peter Welch, most famous for his 'Programming Sucks' post, in which he describes his experiences with going completely batshit insane after a week without sleep plus LSD. It's a great piece of one person's experiences with LSD use gone wrong. edit: actually he's published it as as an ebook too, titled "And Then I Thought I Was A Fish": http://www.amazon.co.uk/And-Then-Thought-Was-Fish-ebook/dp/B008DZEWF8/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/And-Then-Thought-Was-Fish-ebook/dp/B...
- Broken_Hippo 11y ago
  I've not time to read a book and reply to this comment in a timely manner, however: I'd note that lack of sleep in itself can cause some pretty freaky stuff to happen to people's minds in itself. If that is the experience I'm reading about - with an overtone of LSD - I cannot hold that representative of a bad trip. Occsionally,people do have bad trips, however, there is truth in that. For me, that goes back to making informed decisions. Legal sales from trained folks, with stableized ingredients and dosages helps with such things. Yes, a few people are gonna be stupid, but that basically happens with everything.
throwawaymonoid 11y ago
I'd encourage you to re-think your views. "Drugs" is a legal delineation, not one of substance. Like every substance you consume, amount, frequency--and sometimes intent--matter far more than molecular composition. In regard to LSD specifically, please note that the link to schizophrenia has since been proven null, and the individuals studied were already displaying signs of the disorder. Further research in more recent years, while limited, has been unable to find any correlation between incidents of mental illness and the use of hallucinogenics. As per cannabis... without it I'd most certainly be addicted to Rx painkillers. I like knowing that if I travel or go somewhere it's prohibited, I won't suffer crippling withdrawals. In fact, aside from the return of a dull aching pain from chronic hyper-flexion, I wouldn't notice anything other than increasingly vivid dreams caused by REM rebound. For me it's a clear choice. It allows me to function, and unlike other pain management regimens, after 7 years its minimum effective dose (MED) despite daily administration remains unchanged; if I skip a day or 6 months, my pain is not magnitudes above baseline. I'm not here to tout the benefits of marijuana, but to explain how drugs are an indifferent tool, and just because they are harmful in one context doesn't mean we should discount their usefulness in another. Their value is relative. Because of a substance, I can function. Because I can function, I've been able to nurture my business from 3 people to >500, and into the Fortune 1000. For others with traumatic disorders like PTSD, hallucinogenic therapy may hold promises anti-depressants have been unable to actualize. Regardless, generalizations like yours (while in good faith) prevent the regulatory changes needed to once again allow for open research. In respect to the diversity of the human condition, I'd implore you to take a more laissez-faire approach: decide what's right for yourself, not for others.
- thrwyycombinatr 11y ago
  Since you used some anecdotal evidence, I felt I could provide some anecdotal stuff back. LSD: I've tried it a handful of times. The last time resulted in a strip so strongly horrifying I nearly stole a car with people in it to escape my extreme schizophrenic trip. Note: I've never had any symptom of it before in my life, and it doesn't run in my family. Nor do I believe I ever will. It was so extremely out of character, I know for a fact it was induced by the drug. In fact I think the dealer who gave it to my gave me a hugely high dose, which is a big danger of taking LSD from dealers. Cannabis: It may be good for pain relief, I had stomach issues that I used it to help with for years. Then a doctor told me it could be causing my stomach pain. Look up "cannabinoid hyperemesis". It was horrifying. The worst stomach flu you could imagine that lasted for weeks, and didn't leave me for years. I don't know if it was the weed, but I stay away from it now. I've had three different doctors talk about it (in different states), and all told me they have seen big spikes in stomach problems due to weed. So, yea. Nothings black and white. Drugs are an "arbitrary" definition (as all definitions are) for "something that affects you strongly". And anything that effects you strongly deserves a massive warning: if at all possible, don't rely on it.
Broken_Hippo 11y ago
To be fair: Using hallucinogens has been one of the most positive life experiences I've done. While you say things about mental health, the previous poster is correct: It merely can make symptoms more clear, but the cause isn't linked and is often reversed. Hallucinogens also tend to have the opposite effect on depression. One strand of pot isn't nice to anxiety, but if we are honest and open about stuff, affected people can avoid it (or use minimal amounts to test, or try it in the company of a trusted friend)... you know, using information and self-knowledge to try to make wise choices. And that was Thompson's experience with pot - in which case, he should have learned thereafter not to do pot and expect good work from himself: Others find that pot makes them more productive, and yet others find that it is good for some portions of the work, but not others. Simply because his words seem to uphold the stereotype doesn't make it any more true.
- throwawaymonoid 11y ago
  While I'm a proponent, research has made a fairly solid case for THC's ability to trigger latent psychological illness. As you stated, making informed choices relative to your medical history is both critical and necessary to avoid unintended permanent consequences. It's interesting how vastly different everyone's qualitative experiences are when the physiological states are fairly uniform... I think observing those altered processes with next-gen EEG tech may offer some illumination in our current, limited model of neuroplasticity.

by hristov 11y ago

pstuart 11y ago

> LSD leads to a high danger of psychosis or schizophrenia Citations please. It's a powerful drug but has incredible value when used properly. If you're going to start wringing your hands over dangerous drugs, start with the killers of today: alcohol, tobacco, and prescription drugs.

hristov 11y ago
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM196512022732302 http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM196512022732302
- Cryptokeeper 11y ago
  That article is 50 years old. Perhaps this one from 2013: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0063972 http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.... "21,967 respondents (13.4% weighted) reported lifetime psychedelic use. There were no significant associations between lifetime use of any psychedelics, lifetime use of specific psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, peyote), or past year use of LSD and increased rate of any of the mental health outcomes. Rather, in several cases psychedelic use was associated with lower rate of mental health problems."
  - thrwyycombinatr 11y ago
    But temporary schizophrenia is very common. Cmon guys, this is ridiculous. I've seen it so many times. It literally re-wires your brain. And yes, temporary schizophrenia can be extremely dangerous. This is something no one can argue. I hate pedants.
    - throwawaymonoid 11y ago
      Your brain literally re-wires itself constantly. There's no such thing as "temporary schizophrenia." If you're referring to acute psychosis, as you seemingly experienced, then yes it's certainly a possible side effect--though never a permanent one. Bad experiences are usually triggered by an uncomfortable setting, or a dose for which you were not prepared. I'm sorry that was your experience, but concerned your reaction doesn't add to the scientific discussion. LSD increases glutamate and modulates the 5HTA (seratonin) subtypes, as well as having modulatory effects on D2 (dopamine) receptors--it alters conscious processes and lowers the inhibitory threshold of the action potential, allowing "new" neuronal pathways to develop. While we don't know the specific pharmacokinetic MOA, we do know it has a favorable toxicological and therapeutic profile, and that the content of one's hallucinations depend far more on the individual and the setting than the substance. Yes, it can be dangerous. Yes, you can take steps to effectively minimize the danger like you do in every other area of your life (seatbelts? helmets?). Like anything there's a cost-benefit ratio for each individual to consider--are you willing to risk a potentially terrifying experience for a chance at novel insight? I think that's a choice everyone should be able to make for themselves.
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  Do you have the text of it? Wikipedia has a small quote which doesn't back it up: "The 3 patients in whom an extended psychosis followed a single ingestion of LSD clearly had long standing schizophrenia..." The page on it is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD_and_schizophrenia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD_and_schizophrenia - there doesn't seem to be any strong studies. A small increased risk is possible/likely. On the flip side, many folks seem to feel LSD is one of the most meaningful experiences they've had in life. It seems reasonable that healthy people should seek out such an experience in a controlled, safe, environment.
user_0001 11y ago
Don't forget the bigger killers * crossing the road * driving a car * choking on <insert any food here> etc etc

digi_owl 11y ago

> said that pot is the only drug that prevents him from doing any good work. And this is where i suspect the big anti-pot push is coming from. With alcohol you can go out for some beers after work, get buzzed, get up the next day with a nagging ache, and still come back to work. With pot it is more likely that you go "fuck work!". End result, pot is not good for business. Looking across history, there is a whole mess or barely concealed agenda aimed at maintaining a workforce. Even the modern school system is perhaps put into place to produce and maintain a more useful workforce.

Bouncingsoul1 11y ago
For me it is quite the opposite, I prefer to stay at home if I have nagging headache after having to much, on the other hand I never had such an issue with pot.
Broken_Hippo 11y ago
This isn't true for me. I'm more likely to get a good night sleep and wake up well-rested, without a headache ready to go to work after a night of smoking. I'm more likely to call off work if I am feeling sick from drinking the night before: In fact, I'm more likely to simply not go out after work to drink. I can smoke some and do my household stuff in the evening, walk to a coffee shop afterwards and talk with folks, draw, read, etc, most of which is impossible when drinking. I'm gonna guess absenteeism is higher among chronic alcohol users than it is among chronic pot users, but I don't have the citation to back it up.

Cthulhu_ 11y ago

To everyone, you should read The Episode (http://www.stilldrinking.org/the-episode-part-1 http://www.stilldrinking.org/the-episode-part-1), a series of blog posts by Peter Welch, most famous for his 'Programming Sucks' post, in which he describes his experiences with going completely batshit insane after a week without sleep plus LSD. It's a great piece of one person's experiences with LSD use gone wrong. edit: actually he's published it as as an ebook too, titled "And Then I Thought I Was A Fish": http://www.amazon.co.uk/And-Then-Thought-Was-Fish-ebook/dp/B008DZEWF8/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/And-Then-Thought-Was-Fish-ebook/dp/B...

Broken_Hippo 11y ago
I've not time to read a book and reply to this comment in a timely manner, however: I'd note that lack of sleep in itself can cause some pretty freaky stuff to happen to people's minds in itself. If that is the experience I'm reading about - with an overtone of LSD - I cannot hold that representative of a bad trip. Occsionally,people do have bad trips, however, there is truth in that. For me, that goes back to making informed decisions. Legal sales from trained folks, with stableized ingredients and dosages helps with such things. Yes, a few people are gonna be stupid, but that basically happens with everything.

throwawaymonoid 11y ago

I'd encourage you to re-think your views. "Drugs" is a legal delineation, not one of substance. Like every substance you consume, amount, frequency--and sometimes intent--matter far more than molecular composition. In regard to LSD specifically, please note that the link to schizophrenia has since been proven null, and the individuals studied were already displaying signs of the disorder. Further research in more recent years, while limited, has been unable to find any correlation between incidents of mental illness and the use of hallucinogenics. As per cannabis... without it I'd most certainly be addicted to Rx painkillers. I like knowing that if I travel or go somewhere it's prohibited, I won't suffer crippling withdrawals. In fact, aside from the return of a dull aching pain from chronic hyper-flexion, I wouldn't notice anything other than increasingly vivid dreams caused by REM rebound. For me it's a clear choice. It allows me to function, and unlike other pain management regimens, after 7 years its minimum effective dose (MED) despite daily administration remains unchanged; if I skip a day or 6 months, my pain is not magnitudes above baseline. I'm not here to tout the benefits of marijuana, but to explain how drugs are an indifferent tool, and just because they are harmful in one context doesn't mean we should discount their usefulness in another. Their value is relative. Because of a substance, I can function. Because I can function, I've been able to nurture my business from 3 people to >500, and into the Fortune 1000. For others with traumatic disorders like PTSD, hallucinogenic therapy may hold promises anti-depressants have been unable to actualize. Regardless, generalizations like yours (while in good faith) prevent the regulatory changes needed to once again allow for open research. In respect to the diversity of the human condition, I'd implore you to take a more laissez-faire approach: decide what's right for yourself, not for others.

thrwyycombinatr 11y ago
Since you used some anecdotal evidence, I felt I could provide some anecdotal stuff back. LSD: I've tried it a handful of times. The last time resulted in a strip so strongly horrifying I nearly stole a car with people in it to escape my extreme schizophrenic trip. Note: I've never had any symptom of it before in my life, and it doesn't run in my family. Nor do I believe I ever will. It was so extremely out of character, I know for a fact it was induced by the drug. In fact I think the dealer who gave it to my gave me a hugely high dose, which is a big danger of taking LSD from dealers. Cannabis: It may be good for pain relief, I had stomach issues that I used it to help with for years. Then a doctor told me it could be causing my stomach pain. Look up "cannabinoid hyperemesis". It was horrifying. The worst stomach flu you could imagine that lasted for weeks, and didn't leave me for years. I don't know if it was the weed, but I stay away from it now. I've had three different doctors talk about it (in different states), and all told me they have seen big spikes in stomach problems due to weed. So, yea. Nothings black and white. Drugs are an "arbitrary" definition (as all definitions are) for "something that affects you strongly". And anything that effects you strongly deserves a massive warning: if at all possible, don't rely on it.

Broken_Hippo 11y ago

To be fair: Using hallucinogens has been one of the most positive life experiences I've done. While you say things about mental health, the previous poster is correct: It merely can make symptoms more clear, but the cause isn't linked and is often reversed. Hallucinogens also tend to have the opposite effect on depression. One strand of pot isn't nice to anxiety, but if we are honest and open about stuff, affected people can avoid it (or use minimal amounts to test, or try it in the company of a trusted friend)... you know, using information and self-knowledge to try to make wise choices. And that was Thompson's experience with pot - in which case, he should have learned thereafter not to do pot and expect good work from himself: Others find that pot makes them more productive, and yet others find that it is good for some portions of the work, but not others. Simply because his words seem to uphold the stereotype doesn't make it any more true.

throwawaymonoid 11y ago
While I'm a proponent, research has made a fairly solid case for THC's ability to trigger latent psychological illness. As you stated, making informed choices relative to your medical history is both critical and necessary to avoid unintended permanent consequences. It's interesting how vastly different everyone's qualitative experiences are when the physiological states are fairly uniform... I think observing those altered processes with next-gen EEG tech may offer some illumination in our current, limited model of neuroplasticity.