5 ms·

> Strictly speaking, Finland is not a mono-culture. No country is an absolute monoculture or absolutely multicultural, but Finland is a remarkably monocultural

> Strictly speaking, Finland is not a mono-culture. No country is an absolute monoculture or absolutely multicultural, but Finland is a remarkably monocultural country compared to most industrialized nations, with a strong social cohesion and rather minor ethnic divides. Swedish-speakers are very similar in culture and values to Finnish-speaking Finns, they just speak a different language. Right now there is a huge migration going on - about 50 000 asylum seekers will come to the country within the year and it looks the pace will just increase. That means 1% of population, which is a rather significant demographic change in just one year. It will definitely have an impact. I do not really believe Norwegian results are that much different. PISA is just one metric. In the most recent PISA (2012) Finland is #12; in the previous one it was #6 and the one before that it was #2. Did the quality of teaching drop that much in just a few years? Hardly.

dalke 11y ago
While I agree with you, and with the educational system of Finland, that high PISA score is irrelevant, to say "PISA is just one metric" seems to ignore the context that PISA is the basis for nearly all of the international comparisons, and the follow-on discussions and policy decisions. That is, andyl said Finland 'achieves better educational outcomes'. This is (in my experience) based on PISA. Indeed, much of what I've read coming out of the US is that students must get more 'academic' education, backed by large-scale testing, in order to compete against the countries with high PISA scores. You use the term 'do not really believe Norwegian results are that much different'. Could you explain the basis for that statement? The thesis is that a (near) monoculture is a reasonable explanation for high PISA scores. The example of Norway was to show there isn't a simple, direct correlation. I don't think you don't believe the scores aren't difference. Instead, your objection seems instead to be that PISA isn't a stable/useful metric in the first place, so that comparisons aren't relevant. I think your suggestion is that there simply isn't data one way or the other on how homogeneity affects education. Which means, I think, that you also disagree with andyl's hypothesis, but for different reasons.
- ptaipale 11y ago
  > Could you explain the basis for that statement? I merely meant that in my experience, the school education that Norwegians get is not noticeably worse than the one Finnish kids get. They speak foreign languages, they can solve an equation, they know where Arkansas is. Of course this is just my view, nothing you could call a scientific view substantiated by formal research. I just see that Norwegians are generally better (knowledge-wise) educated than Americans, on level with Finns, even if the PISA ratings of Norway and USA are very close to each other and significantly behind Finland. I did not quite understand when you say you've read that students must get more 'academic' education, backed by large-scale testing, in order to compete against the countries with high PISA scores when the supposed strength of Finnish education system is lack of large-scale testing. Particularly early on - pupils generally don't even get any formal scores or ratings until 6th grade (as 13-year-old).
  - dalke 11y ago
    I don't have the experience to judge. While I grew up in the US and live in Sweden, I've found that my personal experience isn't a good guide. Eg, my school in the US offered differential equations, Latin, and European history, which I'm told is uncommon. I also don't have an understanding of the research, so I think we'll have to leave things where they are. "I did not quite understand when you say .." Sorry, I see the confusion. I meant that in the US, in discussion about changes to the US school system, one of the arguments is how US schools need more 'rigorous' testing with a more 'academic' goal, in order to improve PISA scores. Those making this argument often point to a country like South Korea with a very academic/test-centric education system and high PISA as a model for what the US should be. Those opposed point to Finland as a counter-example. To edit what I wrote slightly, "much of what I've read coming out of the US is that US students must get [a] more 'academic' education ..."

dalke 11y ago

While I agree with you, and with the educational system of Finland, that high PISA score is irrelevant, to say "PISA is just one metric" seems to ignore the context that PISA is the basis for nearly all of the international comparisons, and the follow-on discussions and policy decisions. That is, andyl said Finland 'achieves better educational outcomes'. This is (in my experience) based on PISA. Indeed, much of what I've read coming out of the US is that students must get more 'academic' education, backed by large-scale testing, in order to compete against the countries with high PISA scores. You use the term 'do not really believe Norwegian results are that much different'. Could you explain the basis for that statement? The thesis is that a (near) monoculture is a reasonable explanation for high PISA scores. The example of Norway was to show there isn't a simple, direct correlation. I don't think you don't believe the scores aren't difference. Instead, your objection seems instead to be that PISA isn't a stable/useful metric in the first place, so that comparisons aren't relevant. I think your suggestion is that there simply isn't data one way or the other on how homogeneity affects education. Which means, I think, that you also disagree with andyl's hypothesis, but for different reasons.

ptaipale 11y ago
> Could you explain the basis for that statement? I merely meant that in my experience, the school education that Norwegians get is not noticeably worse than the one Finnish kids get. They speak foreign languages, they can solve an equation, they know where Arkansas is. Of course this is just my view, nothing you could call a scientific view substantiated by formal research. I just see that Norwegians are generally better (knowledge-wise) educated than Americans, on level with Finns, even if the PISA ratings of Norway and USA are very close to each other and significantly behind Finland. I did not quite understand when you say you've read that students must get more 'academic' education, backed by large-scale testing, in order to compete against the countries with high PISA scores when the supposed strength of Finnish education system is lack of large-scale testing. Particularly early on - pupils generally don't even get any formal scores or ratings until 6th grade (as 13-year-old).
- dalke 11y ago
  I don't have the experience to judge. While I grew up in the US and live in Sweden, I've found that my personal experience isn't a good guide. Eg, my school in the US offered differential equations, Latin, and European history, which I'm told is uncommon. I also don't have an understanding of the research, so I think we'll have to leave things where they are. "I did not quite understand when you say .." Sorry, I see the confusion. I meant that in the US, in discussion about changes to the US school system, one of the arguments is how US schools need more 'rigorous' testing with a more 'academic' goal, in order to improve PISA scores. Those making this argument often point to a country like South Korea with a very academic/test-centric education system and high PISA as a model for what the US should be. Those opposed point to Finland as a counter-example. To edit what I wrote slightly, "much of what I've read coming out of the US is that US students must get [a] more 'academic' education ..."