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Perhaps the lesson of Finland is that mono-culturalism achieves better educational outcomes than multi-culturalism. Maybe it is easier if stakeholders have hig

by andyl 11y ago

Perhaps the lesson of Finland is that mono-culturalism achieves better educational outcomes than multi-culturalism. Maybe it is easier if stakeholders have high levels of trust, and similar performance expectations, work ethic, language skills, etc.

pasiaj 11y ago
Perhaps. But let's not jump to conclusions.
dalke 11y ago
Strictly speaking, Finland is not a mono-culture. Finland has people from Finnish-speaking and Swedish-speaking cultures. Your objection has been raised before. As http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-schools-successful-49859555/?no-ist=&no-cache=_page%3D2_page%3D5_page%3D2&page=3 http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-sc... points out: > Some of the more vocal conservative reformers in America have grown weary of the “We-Love-Finland crowd” or so-called Finnish Envy. They argue that the United States has little to learn from a country of only 5.4 million people—4 percent of them foreign born. Yet the Finns seem to be onto something. Neighboring Norway, a country of similar size, embraces education policies similar to those in the United States. It employs standardized exams and teachers without master’s degrees. And like America, Norway’s PISA scores have been stalled in the middle ranges for the better part of a decade.
- ptaipale 11y ago
  > Strictly speaking, Finland is not a mono-culture. No country is an absolute monoculture or absolutely multicultural, but Finland is a remarkably monocultural country compared to most industrialized nations, with a strong social cohesion and rather minor ethnic divides. Swedish-speakers are very similar in culture and values to Finnish-speaking Finns, they just speak a different language. Right now there is a huge migration going on - about 50 000 asylum seekers will come to the country within the year and it looks the pace will just increase. That means 1% of population, which is a rather significant demographic change in just one year. It will definitely have an impact. I do not really believe Norwegian results are that much different. PISA is just one metric. In the most recent PISA (2012) Finland is #12; in the previous one it was #6 and the one before that it was #2. Did the quality of teaching drop that much in just a few years? Hardly.
  - dalke 11y ago
    While I agree with you, and with the educational system of Finland, that high PISA score is irrelevant, to say "PISA is just one metric" seems to ignore the context that PISA is the basis for nearly all of the international comparisons, and the follow-on discussions and policy decisions. That is, andyl said Finland 'achieves better educational outcomes'. This is (in my experience) based on PISA. Indeed, much of what I've read coming out of the US is that students must get more 'academic' education, backed by large-scale testing, in order to compete against the countries with high PISA scores. You use the term 'do not really believe Norwegian results are that much different'. Could you explain the basis for that statement? The thesis is that a (near) monoculture is a reasonable explanation for high PISA scores. The example of Norway was to show there isn't a simple, direct correlation. I don't think you don't believe the scores aren't difference. Instead, your objection seems instead to be that PISA isn't a stable/useful metric in the first place, so that comparisons aren't relevant. I think your suggestion is that there simply isn't data one way or the other on how homogeneity affects education. Which means, I think, that you also disagree with andyl's hypothesis, but for different reasons.
    - ptaipale 11y ago
      > Could you explain the basis for that statement? I merely meant that in my experience, the school education that Norwegians get is not noticeably worse than the one Finnish kids get. They speak foreign languages, they can solve an equation, they know where Arkansas is. Of course this is just my view, nothing you could call a scientific view substantiated by formal research. I just see that Norwegians are generally better (knowledge-wise) educated than Americans, on level with Finns, even if the PISA ratings of Norway and USA are very close to each other and significantly behind Finland. I did not quite understand when you say you've read that students must get more 'academic' education, backed by large-scale testing, in order to compete against the countries with high PISA scores when the supposed strength of Finnish education system is lack of large-scale testing. Particularly early on - pupils generally don't even get any formal scores or ratings until 6th grade (as 13-year-old).
      - dalke 11y ago
- sanoli 11y ago
  > Strictly speaking, Finland is not a mono-culture. Stictly speaking, maybe, but, c'mon, compared to the United States it is.
  - dalke 11y ago
    Which is what the better way to consider the question is to compare Finland to Norway, not the US. Which is what I pointed out.
nmrm2 11y ago
Mono-culturalism probably doesn't hurt, but their exceptional social safety net is probably more important. A lot of the problems that American students face very clearly start at their improverished homes. Also, AFAIK, the sort of extreme rich-poor divides between schools that is so characteristic of the USA is far less common in Scandanavian countries. But there is a lot to be said for smart, well-trained teachers. It all starts and ends there.
- pjlegato 11y ago
  > the sort of extreme rich-poor divides between schools that is so characteristic of the USA is far less common in Scandanavian countries. This is due to the "leveling down" social philosophy prominent in Scandinavian societies. Nobody is poor, nobody is rich, and this is not optional, enforced through mandatory wealth transfers (punitive taxation for those of above average income, to fund generous social welfare benefits for the below-average.) Likewise, overachievement in schools is actively hindered just as much as underachievement is given extra assistance. Smarter students' learning is slowed so that they learn no more than about the normal level. This is usually overlooked by the we-love-Finnish-education crowd. See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
  - lemming 11y ago
    Likewise, overachievement in schools is actively hindered just as much as underachievement is given extra assistance. Smarter students' learning is slowed so that they learn no more than about the normal level. This is usually overlooked by the we-love-Finnish-education crowd. You're going to need a citation of some kind for this.
    - fsloth 11y ago
      A finn here. I can offer you only anecdotes, but the statement is not completely off, although it's not entirely true. It depends. My son (8) seems to have a class where they support the strong learners and slow learners at each of their own pace. Some people who I knew talked of eager teachers who gave the all the material they could consume. Personally - 30:ish years ago I finished the second grade math book in a few weeks and the teacher berated me for consuming all the material she had ("What on earth are you going to work on now?") and I ended up bored and idle for the rest of the math class. Never again did I try to pace up... So, it depends on the teachers - nowadays the situation seems to be much more supportive of strong learners. A couple of decades ago though this was a political thing - areas where social democrats were strong _prohibited_ people being taught at their own pace because it did not fit with social democrat ideology of complete equality. So, historically, yes, this was a thing but I think it's better nowadays.
nickbauman 11y ago
This has been debunked. The stats do no support this idea (that because the US has to deal with ESL, etc, it can't perform better). If you factor out ESL students in the US, the US still ranks poorly compared to other nations in the OECD, many of whom are far more multicultural than Finland.
- unimpressive 11y ago
  There's more to culture than just language, and instructors having to perform in a multicultural environment has more side effects than just the effects on students who are directly challenged by aspects of mainstream school curricula.
  - nickbauman 11y ago
    Canada, Netherlands, UK all have very multicultural societies. All three consistently outrank the US.
    - peteretep 11y ago
      All three are consistently outranked by the Finns, though.
    - nullrouted 11y ago
      You are comparing Canada which is like 95% of European decent to the U.S......come on be real? While it isn't just race it is also poverty, the U.S. has a lot of ghettos. You comparison is disingenuous.
- whatshisface 11y ago
  You can't factor out ESL,etc students. Resources can't be spent on them without diverting them from others, and there is no way to know what we could have done if we didn't need to divert those resources.
  - nickbauman 11y ago
Flip-per 11y ago
Mono-cultural areas are areas where nobody wants to move to. These are almost exclusively third-world countries. The borders of nations are a bad separation or aggregation for cultures, we'd have to look at cultures by themselves and compare results there. But for now the immigrant percentage of the population has to do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population#2013_report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant... China, Indonesia, Vietnam, Madagascar, Cuba, Lesotho, Philippines, Burma, Morocco, North Korea, Somalia, Eritrea, Colombia, Afghanistan, ... That's where you can find regions with pristine mono-cultures. Comparing these to truly multi-cultural countries like Switzerland, Hong-Kong and Australia I strongly doubt your hypothesis.

by andyl 11y ago

pasiaj 11y ago

Perhaps. But let's not jump to conclusions.

dalke 11y ago

Strictly speaking, Finland is not a mono-culture. Finland has people from Finnish-speaking and Swedish-speaking cultures. Your objection has been raised before. As http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-schools-successful-49859555/?no-ist=&no-cache=_page%3D2_page%3D5_page%3D2&page=3 http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-sc... points out: > Some of the more vocal conservative reformers in America have grown weary of the “We-Love-Finland crowd” or so-called Finnish Envy. They argue that the United States has little to learn from a country of only 5.4 million people—4 percent of them foreign born. Yet the Finns seem to be onto something. Neighboring Norway, a country of similar size, embraces education policies similar to those in the United States. It employs standardized exams and teachers without master’s degrees. And like America, Norway’s PISA scores have been stalled in the middle ranges for the better part of a decade.

ptaipale 11y ago
> Strictly speaking, Finland is not a mono-culture. No country is an absolute monoculture or absolutely multicultural, but Finland is a remarkably monocultural country compared to most industrialized nations, with a strong social cohesion and rather minor ethnic divides. Swedish-speakers are very similar in culture and values to Finnish-speaking Finns, they just speak a different language. Right now there is a huge migration going on - about 50 000 asylum seekers will come to the country within the year and it looks the pace will just increase. That means 1% of population, which is a rather significant demographic change in just one year. It will definitely have an impact. I do not really believe Norwegian results are that much different. PISA is just one metric. In the most recent PISA (2012) Finland is #12; in the previous one it was #6 and the one before that it was #2. Did the quality of teaching drop that much in just a few years? Hardly.
- dalke 11y ago
  While I agree with you, and with the educational system of Finland, that high PISA score is irrelevant, to say "PISA is just one metric" seems to ignore the context that PISA is the basis for nearly all of the international comparisons, and the follow-on discussions and policy decisions. That is, andyl said Finland 'achieves better educational outcomes'. This is (in my experience) based on PISA. Indeed, much of what I've read coming out of the US is that students must get more 'academic' education, backed by large-scale testing, in order to compete against the countries with high PISA scores. You use the term 'do not really believe Norwegian results are that much different'. Could you explain the basis for that statement? The thesis is that a (near) monoculture is a reasonable explanation for high PISA scores. The example of Norway was to show there isn't a simple, direct correlation. I don't think you don't believe the scores aren't difference. Instead, your objection seems instead to be that PISA isn't a stable/useful metric in the first place, so that comparisons aren't relevant. I think your suggestion is that there simply isn't data one way or the other on how homogeneity affects education. Which means, I think, that you also disagree with andyl's hypothesis, but for different reasons.
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    > Could you explain the basis for that statement? I merely meant that in my experience, the school education that Norwegians get is not noticeably worse than the one Finnish kids get. They speak foreign languages, they can solve an equation, they know where Arkansas is. Of course this is just my view, nothing you could call a scientific view substantiated by formal research. I just see that Norwegians are generally better (knowledge-wise) educated than Americans, on level with Finns, even if the PISA ratings of Norway and USA are very close to each other and significantly behind Finland. I did not quite understand when you say you've read that students must get more 'academic' education, backed by large-scale testing, in order to compete against the countries with high PISA scores when the supposed strength of Finnish education system is lack of large-scale testing. Particularly early on - pupils generally don't even get any formal scores or ratings until 6th grade (as 13-year-old).
    - dalke 11y ago
sanoli 11y ago
> Strictly speaking, Finland is not a mono-culture. Stictly speaking, maybe, but, c'mon, compared to the United States it is.
- dalke 11y ago
  Which is what the better way to consider the question is to compare Finland to Norway, not the US. Which is what I pointed out.

nmrm2 11y ago

Mono-culturalism probably doesn't hurt, but their exceptional social safety net is probably more important. A lot of the problems that American students face very clearly start at their improverished homes. Also, AFAIK, the sort of extreme rich-poor divides between schools that is so characteristic of the USA is far less common in Scandanavian countries. But there is a lot to be said for smart, well-trained teachers. It all starts and ends there.

pjlegato 11y ago
> the sort of extreme rich-poor divides between schools that is so characteristic of the USA is far less common in Scandanavian countries. This is due to the "leveling down" social philosophy prominent in Scandinavian societies. Nobody is poor, nobody is rich, and this is not optional, enforced through mandatory wealth transfers (punitive taxation for those of above average income, to fund generous social welfare benefits for the below-average.) Likewise, overachievement in schools is actively hindered just as much as underachievement is given extra assistance. Smarter students' learning is slowed so that they learn no more than about the normal level. This is usually overlooked by the we-love-Finnish-education crowd. See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
- lemming 11y ago
  Likewise, overachievement in schools is actively hindered just as much as underachievement is given extra assistance. Smarter students' learning is slowed so that they learn no more than about the normal level. This is usually overlooked by the we-love-Finnish-education crowd. You're going to need a citation of some kind for this.
  - fsloth 11y ago
    A finn here. I can offer you only anecdotes, but the statement is not completely off, although it's not entirely true. It depends. My son (8) seems to have a class where they support the strong learners and slow learners at each of their own pace. Some people who I knew talked of eager teachers who gave the all the material they could consume. Personally - 30:ish years ago I finished the second grade math book in a few weeks and the teacher berated me for consuming all the material she had ("What on earth are you going to work on now?") and I ended up bored and idle for the rest of the math class. Never again did I try to pace up... So, it depends on the teachers - nowadays the situation seems to be much more supportive of strong learners. A couple of decades ago though this was a political thing - areas where social democrats were strong _prohibited_ people being taught at their own pace because it did not fit with social democrat ideology of complete equality. So, historically, yes, this was a thing but I think it's better nowadays.

nickbauman 11y ago

This has been debunked. The stats do no support this idea (that because the US has to deal with ESL, etc, it can't perform better). If you factor out ESL students in the US, the US still ranks poorly compared to other nations in the OECD, many of whom are far more multicultural than Finland.

unimpressive 11y ago
There's more to culture than just language, and instructors having to perform in a multicultural environment has more side effects than just the effects on students who are directly challenged by aspects of mainstream school curricula.
- nickbauman 11y ago
  Canada, Netherlands, UK all have very multicultural societies. All three consistently outrank the US.
  - peteretep 11y ago
    All three are consistently outranked by the Finns, though.
  - nullrouted 11y ago
    You are comparing Canada which is like 95% of European decent to the U.S......come on be real? While it isn't just race it is also poverty, the U.S. has a lot of ghettos. You comparison is disingenuous.
whatshisface 11y ago
You can't factor out ESL,etc students. Resources can't be spent on them without diverting them from others, and there is no way to know what we could have done if we didn't need to divert those resources.
- nickbauman 11y ago

Flip-per 11y ago

Mono-cultural areas are areas where nobody wants to move to. These are almost exclusively third-world countries. The borders of nations are a bad separation or aggregation for cultures, we'd have to look at cultures by themselves and compare results there. But for now the immigrant percentage of the population has to do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population#2013_report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant... China, Indonesia, Vietnam, Madagascar, Cuba, Lesotho, Philippines, Burma, Morocco, North Korea, Somalia, Eritrea, Colombia, Afghanistan, ... That's where you can find regions with pristine mono-cultures. Comparing these to truly multi-cultural countries like Switzerland, Hong-Kong and Australia I strongly doubt your hypothesis.