7 ms·

I'm not sure how I feel about the advertising of free labor. On one hand, it's great seeing people participating. On the other hand the WSJ comes off as saying

by monksy 11y ago

I'm not sure how I feel about the advertising of free labor. On one hand, it's great seeing people participating. On the other hand the WSJ comes off as saying that "hey this politician is getting free development."

atticoos 11y ago
I hope the article didn't come across that way. We're all developers passionate about the movement, love hacking on projects, and decided to come together and build cool things. All developers are welcome if you have an idea and want to work with people on it - come join! https://www.reddit.com/r/CodersForSanders https://www.reddit.com/r/CodersForSanders and http://slack.forsanders.com http://slack.forsanders.com and
- um_ya 11y ago
  Bernie Sanders has promised everything to everybody. I would say he has the least credibility than any other candidate (and that's saying a lot considering how shitty the lineup is), because at least the other candidates don't make such ridiculous promises like he does... Seriously, how are you going to give people free healthcare, free education, free [insert entitlement program]. His plan of action, "tax the rich more". What a joke.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    I know, right? Why isn't he promising to defund planned parenthood, build a wall on the Mexican border, and defund the government for ideological reasons! /s It's funny really. I've never been political until Bernie Sanders has come along, and I believe all of his policies are practical to implement (yes, universal healthcare and free education is easy, stop spending as much on the military as the next top 10 countries combined). I'm volunteering for his campaign, helping with Coders For Sanders, and am maxing out my campaign contributions. Perhaps its because I've always leaned a bit to the left, and have reached the end of my rope with conservative crazies.
    - vvanders 11y ago
      +1 you'll see that he regularly references other countries that have already done this. I'm esp a fan of Germany's education track, and having worked in crunch-heavy industries having something like a working time directive would be a Good Thing(tm).
      - vasilipupkin 11y ago
        other countries have done stuff that isn't quite what he proposes. They have very high taxes on the middle class, relatively low taxes on the rich ( via various loop holes and investment tax breaks ) and restrictions on who can go to free college. So, if you want to copy German or Swedish system, then be honest that it will require middle class taxation double of what it is now. Otherwise, Bernie's whole campaign is nothing more than a more civil version of Trump's "we'll be winning so much you'll be tired of winning" schtick
    - nemothekid 11y ago
      >(yes, universal healthcare and free education is easy, stop spending as much on the military as the next top 10 countries combined) I think this statement further reinforces the GP's point. Simply "stop funding the military" isn't "easy" - and I doubt it is something that can be done over a 4 year term. Most of the military's budget are salaries, not just soldiers but likely millions of factory workers who produce a wide range of products for the military. While the question of "are the products they produce useful" is grey, the fact is you'd have to start by laying off millions of Americans and likely damaging the many smaller towns that have come to depend that income source. While its simple to just state "defund the military" the truth is much more complex and likely an even greater political minefield. If he does win the election, if he were to pull off that move, I doubt he would have the political strength to keep a trajectory going for a second election. As much as I believe that free education should be a thing, I believe that is also a minefield. How will schools be funded? Does the government pay the inflated tuitions, or do we solve the student loan problem first? Will we be forced to massively scale back the amount of people who attend 4-year schools (currently around 70% in the US vs. 30% in Germany)? And then to seemingly do this by "just taxing the rich"? It seems that people forget that the President just doesn't wake up one day and decide what to tax people at - it's in part decided by congress (as well as many of the other issues) - and it just seems unlikely that he'll make good on everything he is promising. Personally, I believe Bernie to be a sound candidate, but um_ya has a point.
  - theworstshill 11y ago
    this guy gets it. Whose gonna be paying for all this crap?
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      As an American, you're already paying for it. You're just not getting what you paid for.
  - apsec112 11y ago
    Please don't start political flamewars on HN. "Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - hugh4 11y ago
      Does this whole article count? Does it say anything fundamentally new or is it just a Sanders puff piece (of the type that his followers are currently spamming to every darn social news site in existence) which just happens to have a vague programmingish flavour?
      - chillwaves 11y ago
        The article is directly about the coding community.
      - AlexCoventry 11y ago
        The amount of creativity which is going into Coders for Sanders is a pretty remarkable development.
  - yequalsx 11y ago
    There are lots of examples of countries that provide their citizens with universal healthcare, near free higher education and a strong social welfare system. It's not a joke if there are many examples of this. It could be considered a joke in that it's unlikely his opponents in Congress would vote for such programs and that they'll ridicule it as you have. However, that does not negate that it is feasible to have such things or even reasonable to expect them.
    - rhino369 11y ago
      It's certainly feasible, but not by the sorts of taxes he proposes. European countries make up the difference in revenue by having much higher taxation on the middle class. The middle class in Europe doesn't get free healthcare and free education. They pay for it in higher taxation. So unless the Bern wants a significant VAT tax and increased income taxes on middle income earners, his plans are crazy.
      - refurb 11y ago
        You raise a good point. People talk about taxing the rich more, but guess what? There aren't that many rich! In order to substantially raise gov't spending, the middle class will need to pay more. This reminds me of a Canadian election back in the 1990s. The NDP (left wing) wanted to fund more programs by increasing the taxes on the "rich". So someone asked who the "rich" were. A family of 4 making over $60,000. At least they were honest!
        pandaman 11y ago
        Just today I walked past a new BMW in the garage with a "Bernie" sticker on it. I am not sure it was in support of Sanders but even if it were not it's the perfect symbol of the engineers from the OP: people driving new BMWs supporting taxing "the rich" as if "the rich" are not them.
        politician 11y ago
        You're engaging in a logical fallacy; have you considered that the people driving the new BMWs might consider themselves to be rich --or-- might nevertheless consider Bernie Sander's policy positions to be laudable?
  - notNow 11y ago
    how are you going to give people free healthcare, free education... Like Germany, Canada, Sweden is doing or any other developed country with a reasonable social safety net and free market economy. It is not mission impossible like you make it sound to be
  - JesperRavn 11y ago
    This thread is about how great it is that volunteers are coming together for a good cause. Let's keep politics out of it.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Just joined the Coders For Sanders Slack team today, and I am blown away by the number of fellow tech professionals who've joined. Well done.
  - atticoos 11y ago
    welcome! looking forward to seeing you around!
- findjashua 11y ago
  i see what you're saying. But if he's not paying them for their work, I think it'd be more 'kosher' to open source their code. And I say this as someone who supports Bernie (even though I can't vote here)
  - DennisP 11y ago
    Or maybe open source the code after the election, just so it's not Coders for Sanders, O'Malley, Etc.
    - findjashua 11y ago
      fair point
  - iraphael 11y ago
    I don't know if this encompasses all of the CfS projects, but the reddit links to this: https://github.com/SandersForPresident https://github.com/SandersForPresident So at least some of the work is open source
  - atticoos 11y ago
    Absolutely agreed. We open source just about all of our projects under GNUA licensing over at https://github.com/SandersForPresident https://github.com/SandersForPresident
Implicated 11y ago
What's wrong with people volunteering their time for something they believe in? How is this any different than developers volunteering their time to a charity or anything else for that nature? I've done so much "free" work for family and friends, gladly. I struggle to see this any different for those who feel strongly for the Barry Sanders candidacy.
- Shivetya 11y ago
  because campaign finance rules apply here. that is what is different. For all the belly aching people have with corporate donations to campaigns and similar this is the same. What is the going rate for such developers? Tools, servers, and bandwidth. What is to stop someone from exploiting this as a loophole? Hence, that is the big deal. Dress it up and it is still a pig.
  - ForHackernews 11y ago
    > For all the belly aching people have with corporate donations to campaigns and similar this is the same. It's not the same at all. Every human being has an equal 24 hours a day they can spend doing things. If you choose to spend some of those hours helping a cause you care about, more power to you. In contrast, corporations have hundreds of millions of dollars (more than all but the richest people) to spend on their interests. And a corporation can't "care" about a cause, it can only spend money to advance its interests and try to make more money.
    - ageek123 11y ago
      You don't think a lot of people who volunteer for campaigns are just trying to "make more money" by protecting or expanding entitlement programs (or regulations about unions, or ...) that benefit themselves?
  - bicknergseng 11y ago
    Shades of gray. There's some significant gray area when it comes to more tangible things like servers, etc, but I think if you're having a hard time discerning between a group of individuals volunteering time and a group of individuals who use obscene wealth to derail the democratic process in terms of effects on democracy, we probably need to reframe the conversation somehow. Would a celebrity endorsement be a dressed up pig? The going rate for a Kardashian tweet is absurd. But how would it be "fair" if they were disallowed from tweeting if everyone else could. I think it's impossibly complex and nuanced, and trying to paint this kind of activism as equal to corporate and individuals buying elections is blatantly disregarding that complexity. There goal is to balance the contributions of individuals and special interest groups in a way that no single party is able to grossly tilt the process in a way that harms it. What that means in the real world is incredibly complicated and to be determined, but I can't see individual volunteering of time and skill as being the same as individuals volunteering millions of dollars.
nathancahill 11y ago
Well, this politician is getting free money from me, which is a step beyond free labor. I signed up to volunteer for his web dev team a couple months ago, but never heard anything back. I guess they (correctly) decided to hire people for that, since it's not an option on his website anymore.
rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
HN benefits from user-driven moderation instead of having paid moderators.
- saryant 11y ago
  HN doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of the Federal Election Commission.
  - AlexCoventry 11y ago
    The FEC has explicitly said it's irrelevant to donations of volunteer time.
politician 11y ago
This politician regards free development in a favorable light.

by monksy 11y ago

atticoos 11y ago

I hope the article didn't come across that way. We're all developers passionate about the movement, love hacking on projects, and decided to come together and build cool things. All developers are welcome if you have an idea and want to work with people on it - come join! https://www.reddit.com/r/CodersForSanders https://www.reddit.com/r/CodersForSanders and http://slack.forsanders.com http://slack.forsanders.com and

um_ya 11y ago
Bernie Sanders has promised everything to everybody. I would say he has the least credibility than any other candidate (and that's saying a lot considering how shitty the lineup is), because at least the other candidates don't make such ridiculous promises like he does... Seriously, how are you going to give people free healthcare, free education, free [insert entitlement program]. His plan of action, "tax the rich more". What a joke.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  I know, right? Why isn't he promising to defund planned parenthood, build a wall on the Mexican border, and defund the government for ideological reasons! /s It's funny really. I've never been political until Bernie Sanders has come along, and I believe all of his policies are practical to implement (yes, universal healthcare and free education is easy, stop spending as much on the military as the next top 10 countries combined). I'm volunteering for his campaign, helping with Coders For Sanders, and am maxing out my campaign contributions. Perhaps its because I've always leaned a bit to the left, and have reached the end of my rope with conservative crazies.
  - vvanders 11y ago
    +1 you'll see that he regularly references other countries that have already done this. I'm esp a fan of Germany's education track, and having worked in crunch-heavy industries having something like a working time directive would be a Good Thing(tm).
    - vasilipupkin 11y ago
      other countries have done stuff that isn't quite what he proposes. They have very high taxes on the middle class, relatively low taxes on the rich ( via various loop holes and investment tax breaks ) and restrictions on who can go to free college. So, if you want to copy German or Swedish system, then be honest that it will require middle class taxation double of what it is now. Otherwise, Bernie's whole campaign is nothing more than a more civil version of Trump's "we'll be winning so much you'll be tired of winning" schtick
  - nemothekid 11y ago
    >(yes, universal healthcare and free education is easy, stop spending as much on the military as the next top 10 countries combined) I think this statement further reinforces the GP's point. Simply "stop funding the military" isn't "easy" - and I doubt it is something that can be done over a 4 year term. Most of the military's budget are salaries, not just soldiers but likely millions of factory workers who produce a wide range of products for the military. While the question of "are the products they produce useful" is grey, the fact is you'd have to start by laying off millions of Americans and likely damaging the many smaller towns that have come to depend that income source. While its simple to just state "defund the military" the truth is much more complex and likely an even greater political minefield. If he does win the election, if he were to pull off that move, I doubt he would have the political strength to keep a trajectory going for a second election. As much as I believe that free education should be a thing, I believe that is also a minefield. How will schools be funded? Does the government pay the inflated tuitions, or do we solve the student loan problem first? Will we be forced to massively scale back the amount of people who attend 4-year schools (currently around 70% in the US vs. 30% in Germany)? And then to seemingly do this by "just taxing the rich"? It seems that people forget that the President just doesn't wake up one day and decide what to tax people at - it's in part decided by congress (as well as many of the other issues) - and it just seems unlikely that he'll make good on everything he is promising. Personally, I believe Bernie to be a sound candidate, but um_ya has a point.
- theworstshill 11y ago
  this guy gets it. Whose gonna be paying for all this crap?
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    As an American, you're already paying for it. You're just not getting what you paid for.
- apsec112 11y ago
  Please don't start political flamewars on HN. "Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - hugh4 11y ago
    Does this whole article count? Does it say anything fundamentally new or is it just a Sanders puff piece (of the type that his followers are currently spamming to every darn social news site in existence) which just happens to have a vague programmingish flavour?
    - chillwaves 11y ago
      The article is directly about the coding community.
    - AlexCoventry 11y ago
      The amount of creativity which is going into Coders for Sanders is a pretty remarkable development.
- yequalsx 11y ago
  There are lots of examples of countries that provide their citizens with universal healthcare, near free higher education and a strong social welfare system. It's not a joke if there are many examples of this. It could be considered a joke in that it's unlikely his opponents in Congress would vote for such programs and that they'll ridicule it as you have. However, that does not negate that it is feasible to have such things or even reasonable to expect them.
  - rhino369 11y ago
    It's certainly feasible, but not by the sorts of taxes he proposes. European countries make up the difference in revenue by having much higher taxation on the middle class. The middle class in Europe doesn't get free healthcare and free education. They pay for it in higher taxation. So unless the Bern wants a significant VAT tax and increased income taxes on middle income earners, his plans are crazy.
    - refurb 11y ago
      You raise a good point. People talk about taxing the rich more, but guess what? There aren't that many rich! In order to substantially raise gov't spending, the middle class will need to pay more. This reminds me of a Canadian election back in the 1990s. The NDP (left wing) wanted to fund more programs by increasing the taxes on the "rich". So someone asked who the "rich" were. A family of 4 making over $60,000. At least they were honest!
      - pandaman 11y ago
        Just today I walked past a new BMW in the garage with a "Bernie" sticker on it. I am not sure it was in support of Sanders but even if it were not it's the perfect symbol of the engineers from the OP: people driving new BMWs supporting taxing "the rich" as if "the rich" are not them.
        politician 11y ago
        You're engaging in a logical fallacy; have you considered that the people driving the new BMWs might consider themselves to be rich --or-- might nevertheless consider Bernie Sander's policy positions to be laudable?
- notNow 11y ago
  how are you going to give people free healthcare, free education... Like Germany, Canada, Sweden is doing or any other developed country with a reasonable social safety net and free market economy. It is not mission impossible like you make it sound to be
- JesperRavn 11y ago
  This thread is about how great it is that volunteers are coming together for a good cause. Let's keep politics out of it.
toomuchtodo 11y ago
Just joined the Coders For Sanders Slack team today, and I am blown away by the number of fellow tech professionals who've joined. Well done.
- atticoos 11y ago
  welcome! looking forward to seeing you around!
findjashua 11y ago
i see what you're saying. But if he's not paying them for their work, I think it'd be more 'kosher' to open source their code. And I say this as someone who supports Bernie (even though I can't vote here)
- DennisP 11y ago
  Or maybe open source the code after the election, just so it's not Coders for Sanders, O'Malley, Etc.
  - findjashua 11y ago
    fair point
- iraphael 11y ago
  I don't know if this encompasses all of the CfS projects, but the reddit links to this: https://github.com/SandersForPresident https://github.com/SandersForPresident So at least some of the work is open source
- atticoos 11y ago
  Absolutely agreed. We open source just about all of our projects under GNUA licensing over at https://github.com/SandersForPresident https://github.com/SandersForPresident

Implicated 11y ago

What's wrong with people volunteering their time for something they believe in? How is this any different than developers volunteering their time to a charity or anything else for that nature? I've done so much "free" work for family and friends, gladly. I struggle to see this any different for those who feel strongly for the Barry Sanders candidacy.

Shivetya 11y ago
because campaign finance rules apply here. that is what is different. For all the belly aching people have with corporate donations to campaigns and similar this is the same. What is the going rate for such developers? Tools, servers, and bandwidth. What is to stop someone from exploiting this as a loophole? Hence, that is the big deal. Dress it up and it is still a pig.
- ForHackernews 11y ago
  > For all the belly aching people have with corporate donations to campaigns and similar this is the same. It's not the same at all. Every human being has an equal 24 hours a day they can spend doing things. If you choose to spend some of those hours helping a cause you care about, more power to you. In contrast, corporations have hundreds of millions of dollars (more than all but the richest people) to spend on their interests. And a corporation can't "care" about a cause, it can only spend money to advance its interests and try to make more money.
  - ageek123 11y ago
    You don't think a lot of people who volunteer for campaigns are just trying to "make more money" by protecting or expanding entitlement programs (or regulations about unions, or ...) that benefit themselves?
- bicknergseng 11y ago
  Shades of gray. There's some significant gray area when it comes to more tangible things like servers, etc, but I think if you're having a hard time discerning between a group of individuals volunteering time and a group of individuals who use obscene wealth to derail the democratic process in terms of effects on democracy, we probably need to reframe the conversation somehow. Would a celebrity endorsement be a dressed up pig? The going rate for a Kardashian tweet is absurd. But how would it be "fair" if they were disallowed from tweeting if everyone else could. I think it's impossibly complex and nuanced, and trying to paint this kind of activism as equal to corporate and individuals buying elections is blatantly disregarding that complexity. There goal is to balance the contributions of individuals and special interest groups in a way that no single party is able to grossly tilt the process in a way that harms it. What that means in the real world is incredibly complicated and to be determined, but I can't see individual volunteering of time and skill as being the same as individuals volunteering millions of dollars.

nathancahill 11y ago

Well, this politician is getting free money from me, which is a step beyond free labor. I signed up to volunteer for his web dev team a couple months ago, but never heard anything back. I guess they (correctly) decided to hire people for that, since it's not an option on his website anymore.

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago

HN benefits from user-driven moderation instead of having paid moderators.

saryant 11y ago
HN doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of the Federal Election Commission.
- AlexCoventry 11y ago
  The FEC has explicitly said it's irrelevant to donations of volunteer time.

politician 11y ago

This politician regards free development in a favorable light.