4 ms·

Only thing about PICO-8 that makes no sense: the 32k limit. Otherwise, an awesome set of limitations.

by byron_fast 11y ago

mistagiggles 11y ago
Maybe this is the limit of the amount of data that can be hidden/interleaved into the cartridge image
- creshal 11y ago
  PNG allows embedding (multiple) "auxiliary chunks" of up to 4 GiB (each!).
  - akx 11y ago
    Which would get immediately lost when a less savvy PNG optimizer or whatever touches the file...
chipsy 11y ago
It means that games download fast and don't need a separate thumbnail. It's the most strenuous limitation but it makes sense in terms of being able to host content cheaply.
walkingolof 11y ago
The NES had 2 kb onboard and 8 to 16kb on the cartridge, 32kb ROM and 2kb display memory
- byron_fast 11y ago
  It doesn't need to do that, though. It's an interesting set of visual limitations, but the size limit is an arbitrary pain in the ass if your program gets too big. Nobody's hosting is going to break at 256kb.
  - danbolt 11y ago
    You certainly make a good point. There aren't really any real constraints that make the size so small. At the same time, I feel the size limit is intended to have the same spirit as the audiovisual ones. Or, if one really wanted the PICO-8's features, but with more space, she could easily recreate the same functionality with another game framework pretty quickly. Perhaps it's almost like a tribute to stuff seen in the C64 demoscene.
    - byron_fast 11y ago
      Oh for sure it's about "staying on theme" but it's arbitrary. Based on some of the amazing stuff people are doing with Pico-8 it seems reasonable that more space could make it even more interesting. The fact that processing speed isn't a limitation reveals that even such a truncated screen can communicate beautiful things. As a programmer who's not good at compressing stuff, it would be annoying to have to spend time bashing code to fit an arbitrary limit.
  - walkingolof 11y ago
    Your missing the point, it has nothing to do with download speed. 32k is not a pita, its the point, this is a fantasy retro consol, giving it 32 MB would do what ? make it pointless probably Its also a excellent opportunity to show off, for example, nobody would have thought you could make this on a C64 1984 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kJz_XfbxX0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kJz_XfbxX0
    - greggman 11y ago
      I agree. Those limits including the 32k code limit really focus what to aim for. Google online game editors and there's plenty with few limits and ... No one is using them. To me it's kind of one of the reasons minecraft has done so well. The limit style frees people from feeling like they need mad skillz Also note pico-8 limits the number of instructions executed per frame. So a faster CPU will not increase what you can do. The goal is to make sure all games run even on the least powered hardware.
- david-given 11y ago
  The unexpanded ZX81 had 1kB of RAM, of which 672 bytes were usable (and you had to fit your video framebuffer and program storage in there; no ROM cartridges here!). Here's an emulator: http://www.zx81stuff.org.uk/zx81/jtyone.html http://www.zx81stuff.org.uk/zx81/jtyone.html
- acveilleux 11y ago
  That's until you account for memory mappers... Dragon Warrior IV had 1024k of rom. One cartridge had a total of 3MB (110-in-1.)
Tepix 11y ago
Who knows, perhaps some day there will be dirt cheap PICO-8 hardware?
- greggman 11y ago
  PICO-8 has been intentionally designed to be able to run on PI level hardware. A few people have made or are working on consoles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YRHtbOdxbc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YRHtbOdxbc https://twitter.com/gustav_olsson/status/627833548700053504 https://twitter.com/gustav_olsson/status/627833548700053504
gosub 11y ago
Lost an opportunity at setting the limit to 640k. 640K ought to be enough for anyone.
nickpsecurity 11y ago
I totally agree. The vendors that made stuff like that later made memory expansions for that exact reason. Even great embedded demos like QNX came on a floppy (1+MB). My 28.8kbps connection handled that download fine. Plus, SymbOS already showed us how much more interesting things get with more memory/storage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SymbOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SymbOS Little excuse for arbitrary limitations even in retro scene. Exception is demoscene where it's kind of the point.

Only thing about PICO-8 that makes no sense: the 32k limit. Otherwise, an awesome set of limitations.

mistagiggles 11y ago

Maybe this is the limit of the amount of data that can be hidden/interleaved into the cartridge image

creshal 11y ago
PNG allows embedding (multiple) "auxiliary chunks" of up to 4 GiB (each!).
- akx 11y ago
  Which would get immediately lost when a less savvy PNG optimizer or whatever touches the file...

chipsy 11y ago

It means that games download fast and don't need a separate thumbnail. It's the most strenuous limitation but it makes sense in terms of being able to host content cheaply.

walkingolof 11y ago

The NES had 2 kb onboard and 8 to 16kb on the cartridge, 32kb ROM and 2kb display memory

byron_fast 11y ago
It doesn't need to do that, though. It's an interesting set of visual limitations, but the size limit is an arbitrary pain in the ass if your program gets too big. Nobody's hosting is going to break at 256kb.
- danbolt 11y ago
  You certainly make a good point. There aren't really any real constraints that make the size so small. At the same time, I feel the size limit is intended to have the same spirit as the audiovisual ones. Or, if one really wanted the PICO-8's features, but with more space, she could easily recreate the same functionality with another game framework pretty quickly. Perhaps it's almost like a tribute to stuff seen in the C64 demoscene.
  - byron_fast 11y ago
    Oh for sure it's about "staying on theme" but it's arbitrary. Based on some of the amazing stuff people are doing with Pico-8 it seems reasonable that more space could make it even more interesting. The fact that processing speed isn't a limitation reveals that even such a truncated screen can communicate beautiful things. As a programmer who's not good at compressing stuff, it would be annoying to have to spend time bashing code to fit an arbitrary limit.
- walkingolof 11y ago
  Your missing the point, it has nothing to do with download speed. 32k is not a pita, its the point, this is a fantasy retro consol, giving it 32 MB would do what ? make it pointless probably Its also a excellent opportunity to show off, for example, nobody would have thought you could make this on a C64 1984 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kJz_XfbxX0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kJz_XfbxX0
  - greggman 11y ago
    I agree. Those limits including the 32k code limit really focus what to aim for. Google online game editors and there's plenty with few limits and ... No one is using them. To me it's kind of one of the reasons minecraft has done so well. The limit style frees people from feeling like they need mad skillz Also note pico-8 limits the number of instructions executed per frame. So a faster CPU will not increase what you can do. The goal is to make sure all games run even on the least powered hardware.
david-given 11y ago
The unexpanded ZX81 had 1kB of RAM, of which 672 bytes were usable (and you had to fit your video framebuffer and program storage in there; no ROM cartridges here!). Here's an emulator: http://www.zx81stuff.org.uk/zx81/jtyone.html http://www.zx81stuff.org.uk/zx81/jtyone.html
acveilleux 11y ago
That's until you account for memory mappers... Dragon Warrior IV had 1024k of rom. One cartridge had a total of 3MB (110-in-1.)

Tepix 11y ago

Who knows, perhaps some day there will be dirt cheap PICO-8 hardware?

greggman 11y ago
PICO-8 has been intentionally designed to be able to run on PI level hardware. A few people have made or are working on consoles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YRHtbOdxbc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YRHtbOdxbc https://twitter.com/gustav_olsson/status/627833548700053504 https://twitter.com/gustav_olsson/status/627833548700053504

gosub 11y ago

Lost an opportunity at setting the limit to 640k. 640K ought to be enough for anyone.

nickpsecurity 11y ago

I totally agree. The vendors that made stuff like that later made memory expansions for that exact reason. Even great embedded demos like QNX came on a floppy (1+MB). My 28.8kbps connection handled that download fine. Plus, SymbOS already showed us how much more interesting things get with more memory/storage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SymbOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SymbOS Little excuse for arbitrary limitations even in retro scene. Exception is demoscene where it's kind of the point.