4 ms·

Interestingly many auto manufacturers UNDERSTATE horsepower and torque numbers. I can understand that a little, due to variances in actual engines, but these d

by modoc 11y ago

Interestingly many auto manufacturers UNDERSTATE horsepower and torque numbers. I can understand that a little, due to variances in actual engines, but these days that variance is low and the spread between specced power and dyne'ed power is pretty big on many cars.

famousactress 11y ago
I'd always heard that was to keep insurance premiums lower for those cars, but have no idea whether that's true.
drglitch 11y ago
Almost no manufacturers do it - historically, BMW and MB have been "caught" doing this, with 335i and C-class AMG engines. A commonly accepted explanation for this is that the "cheaper" model is made to appear less powerful on paper to entire a buyer to upgrade to next model up (i.e. M3). Relevant tests from 2010 ~ when this meme started: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1009_bmw_335i_335is_dyno_test/%20-%20/ http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1009_bmw_335i_33... In reality, almost all cars "produce" far less ponies at the wheels than stated on spec sheets because HP is "[S]ampled [A]t [E]ngine" - so by time it reaches your wheels, about 20-30% are lost to drive train. Edit: formatting
- matthewmcg 11y ago
  You're correct, but one minor point: SAE is actually an abbreviation for "Society of Automotive Engineers," a standards and certifying body. The difference you are describing is between "gross" horsepower (SAE J1995 spec.), essentially horsepower measured at an unloaded crankshaft and "net" horsepower (SAE 1349 spec.) or the horsepower measured at the wheels.[1] The difference is due to drivetrain losses and power used to drive non-engine components. [1] See http://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/horsepower-gross-vs-real-world.html http://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/horsepower-gross-vs-re...
rconti 11y ago
There was the supposed Japanese "Gentleman's agreement" of 276 (286?)HP to keep the government off their backs. There's also the common saying "German horses are stronger" because acceleration and dyno tests (long before the turbo 335) have shown them to be faster than they "should" be, in particular to certain American muscle cars. I'm not sure how much reality there is behind this, though.
- beeboop 11y ago
  What you might be thinking about is the agreement between manufacturers to not make motorcycle top speeds more than 300KPH (186MPH). There are no limits on horsepower, though, and the top speeds are simply electronically limited. This also has no relation to car models.
  - jimjimjim 11y ago
    No, there WAS an agreement between Japanese car makers to limit the HP of their vehicles. Even the GTRs, Evos and Imprezas left the factory with approximately the the same stated HP figures. They could then be reasonably easily tuned to produce ludicrous amounts of power.
    - grecy 11y ago
      Both of you commenting in this chain are correct. The Japanese "gentleman's agreement" was a limit on power of 207Kw. Towards the end, many of the cars hit by this were making more than that at the wheels, let alone the crank. It was possible to gain 50Kw on certain WRXes and Evos with a different air intake and exhaust, they were so restricted. Also, for a while there was an "agreement" that sports bikes wouldn't go faster than 300km/h - they didn't limit them, the end of the speedo was 300km/h. Lots of R1s and Hyabusas will be revving somewhere in the middle of their rev range at 300km/h in top gear, then you can wind on another 4-5-6 thousand rpm, while the speedo stays pegged at 300km/h. You are, of course, going faster than that.
      - snaily 11y ago

by modoc 11y ago

famousactress 11y ago

I'd always heard that was to keep insurance premiums lower for those cars, but have no idea whether that's true.

drglitch 11y ago

Almost no manufacturers do it - historically, BMW and MB have been "caught" doing this, with 335i and C-class AMG engines. A commonly accepted explanation for this is that the "cheaper" model is made to appear less powerful on paper to entire a buyer to upgrade to next model up (i.e. M3). Relevant tests from 2010 ~ when this meme started: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1009_bmw_335i_335is_dyno_test/%20-%20/ http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1009_bmw_335i_33... In reality, almost all cars "produce" far less ponies at the wheels than stated on spec sheets because HP is "[S]ampled [A]t [E]ngine" - so by time it reaches your wheels, about 20-30% are lost to drive train. Edit: formatting

matthewmcg 11y ago
You're correct, but one minor point: SAE is actually an abbreviation for "Society of Automotive Engineers," a standards and certifying body. The difference you are describing is between "gross" horsepower (SAE J1995 spec.), essentially horsepower measured at an unloaded crankshaft and "net" horsepower (SAE 1349 spec.) or the horsepower measured at the wheels.[1] The difference is due to drivetrain losses and power used to drive non-engine components. [1] See http://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/horsepower-gross-vs-real-world.html http://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/horsepower-gross-vs-re...

rconti 11y ago

There was the supposed Japanese "Gentleman's agreement" of 276 (286?)HP to keep the government off their backs. There's also the common saying "German horses are stronger" because acceleration and dyno tests (long before the turbo 335) have shown them to be faster than they "should" be, in particular to certain American muscle cars. I'm not sure how much reality there is behind this, though.

beeboop 11y ago
What you might be thinking about is the agreement between manufacturers to not make motorcycle top speeds more than 300KPH (186MPH). There are no limits on horsepower, though, and the top speeds are simply electronically limited. This also has no relation to car models.
- jimjimjim 11y ago
  No, there WAS an agreement between Japanese car makers to limit the HP of their vehicles. Even the GTRs, Evos and Imprezas left the factory with approximately the the same stated HP figures. They could then be reasonably easily tuned to produce ludicrous amounts of power.
  - grecy 11y ago
    Both of you commenting in this chain are correct. The Japanese "gentleman's agreement" was a limit on power of 207Kw. Towards the end, many of the cars hit by this were making more than that at the wheels, let alone the crank. It was possible to gain 50Kw on certain WRXes and Evos with a different air intake and exhaust, they were so restricted. Also, for a while there was an "agreement" that sports bikes wouldn't go faster than 300km/h - they didn't limit them, the end of the speedo was 300km/h. Lots of R1s and Hyabusas will be revving somewhere in the middle of their rev range at 300km/h in top gear, then you can wind on another 4-5-6 thousand rpm, while the speedo stays pegged at 300km/h. You are, of course, going faster than that.
    - snaily 11y ago